1 00:00:00,140 --> 00:00:02,900 let me call the hearing back to order 2 00:00:02,980 --> 00:00:06,010 and uh I will recognize Senator 3 00:00:06,010 --> 00:00:08,450 Blumenthal for a second round . 4 00:00:10,140 --> 00:00:12,140 Thank you . Thank you . Mr Chairman 5 00:00:12,140 --> 00:00:14,196 thank you for your testimony earlier 6 00:00:14,196 --> 00:00:16,960 and your continuing testimony 7 00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:22,310 now uh Secretary Austin , I'd 8 00:00:22,350 --> 00:00:26,120 like to go back to the 9 00:00:26,130 --> 00:00:29,350 topic of my first round of questions . 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,180 The evacuation of americans and our 11 00:00:33,180 --> 00:00:35,140 afghan allies , translators , 12 00:00:35,140 --> 00:00:36,973 interpreters , guards , security 13 00:00:36,973 --> 00:00:38,973 officer who sided with us put their 14 00:00:38,973 --> 00:00:42,590 lives on the line and who now literally 15 00:00:42,590 --> 00:00:44,757 have targets on their backs along with 16 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,240 their families . I asked you who at 17 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,407 the Department of Defense is in charge 18 00:00:51,407 --> 00:00:54,410 of our efforts to evacuate them and 19 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,290 with all due respect , you didn't give 20 00:00:57,290 --> 00:00:59,568 me the name of the person at D . O . D . 21 00:00:59,568 --> 00:01:02,670 Leading these efforts . Right . You 22 00:01:02,670 --> 00:01:04,892 pointed me instead to the Department of 23 00:01:04,892 --> 00:01:07,960 State and inter agency efforts . 24 00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:12,790 Uh I've been involved in working on 25 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,020 this evacuation issue and on the 26 00:01:15,020 --> 00:01:17,960 refugee question for some time along 27 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:21,080 with this Coalition of Veterans Ngos 28 00:01:21,090 --> 00:01:23,257 concerned citizens and some government 29 00:01:23,257 --> 00:01:26,140 officials . And the frustration I've 30 00:01:26,140 --> 00:01:28,307 encountered is that I've been directed 31 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,880 repeatedly and constantly from one 32 00:01:31,890 --> 00:01:34,040 agency to another . Diode sent me to 33 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,210 state who then sent me to the National 34 00:01:37,210 --> 00:01:39,600 Security Council who would send me back 35 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,822 to the Department of Defense . It was a 36 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,980 cough guest exercise in bureaucracy and 37 00:01:45,980 --> 00:01:48,060 red tape with no clear lines of 38 00:01:48,060 --> 00:01:51,830 authority while lives were on the line . 39 00:01:51,830 --> 00:01:55,300 And this private network or coalition 40 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,490 was doing the work that the United 41 00:01:59,490 --> 00:02:02,470 States Government would have done if it 42 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,120 had maintained a presence there but it 43 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,710 had none and that's why at mature 44 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,340 and abu it was doing that 45 00:02:12,340 --> 00:02:16,030 work . So I'm concerned that 46 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,130 despite this committee's efforts to 47 00:02:18,130 --> 00:02:20,240 call attention the looming crisis in 48 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,160 the evacuation , we were unprepared . 49 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:28,150 And as I mentioned earlier , number of 50 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,271 members of this committee went to the 51 00:02:30,271 --> 00:02:33,100 White House in the spring , asked for a 52 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:35,660 plan , a strategy 53 00:02:37,340 --> 00:02:39,660 and none was forthcoming . I'm 54 00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:42,150 concerned will repeat that 55 00:02:43,340 --> 00:02:46,880 mistake as we work to avoid a 56 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,950 humanitarian crisis during refugee 57 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,850 resettlement . And that will be a huge 58 00:02:53,860 --> 00:02:56,560 undertaking with hundreds of thousands 59 00:02:56,570 --> 00:02:59,750 of afghan refugees 60 00:03:01,140 --> 00:03:04,760 who are literally escaping 61 00:03:05,140 --> 00:03:07,660 torture and murder come in this country . 62 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,262 Many of them with nothing more than the 63 00:03:10,262 --> 00:03:13,030 clothes they had when they left . We 64 00:03:13,030 --> 00:03:15,030 currently have tens of thousands of 65 00:03:15,030 --> 00:03:17,890 those individuals on your basis . 66 00:03:17,890 --> 00:03:19,970 Department of Defense bases both 67 00:03:19,970 --> 00:03:23,430 overseas that Qatar kuwait Saudi Arabia 68 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,496 Germany and domestically as you well 69 00:03:25,496 --> 00:03:28,060 know Virginia , Wisconsin , new Mexico 70 00:03:28,060 --> 00:03:31,640 and texas . This is a Department of 71 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:33,840 Defense responsibility . It's a moral 72 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,210 imperative these people risk their 73 00:03:36,210 --> 00:03:39,630 lives for us . As you know on this 74 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:42,530 panel better than any of us and it will 75 00:03:42,530 --> 00:03:44,641 be shared with the State Department , 76 00:03:44,641 --> 00:03:46,752 the Department of Homeland Security , 77 00:03:46,752 --> 00:03:48,808 Health and Human Services , numerous 78 00:03:48,808 --> 00:03:51,450 other federal agencies and we owe it , 79 00:03:51,460 --> 00:03:54,760 we own it , it's our responsibility . 80 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,129 I'm a United States senator and I 81 00:03:57,129 --> 00:03:59,120 continue to have difficulty 82 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,610 ascertaining who's in charge . I think 83 00:04:01,620 --> 00:04:05,590 we need an evacuation . Zar a point 84 00:04:05,590 --> 00:04:09,480 person on refugee resettlement whose 85 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,810 mission is public and who is known to 86 00:04:12,810 --> 00:04:15,250 the american people to be in charge 87 00:04:15,250 --> 00:04:19,190 here . So uh I 88 00:04:19,190 --> 00:04:21,740 would like to ask you , how do we 89 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:24,270 ensure that there is 90 00:04:25,540 --> 00:04:28,460 a official in charge , 91 00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:33,650 a point person , someone to ensure that 92 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,900 afghan Children receive schooling , 93 00:04:36,910 --> 00:04:39,077 that their language services that they 94 00:04:39,077 --> 00:04:41,950 receive medical care . And can you give 95 00:04:41,950 --> 00:04:44,650 us an update on what's the status ? 96 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:49,060 Well again , senator , thanks for all 97 00:04:49,070 --> 00:04:51,920 for your sustained interest and for all 98 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,240 that you have done uh to continue to 99 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,240 help get people out . And there is a 100 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,560 process , there is a mechanism state 101 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,710 has responsibility as as you know , for 102 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,590 uh the continuing for being the lead to 103 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:08,920 continue to evacuate american citizens 104 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,253 and s ivy applicants out of Afghanistan . 105 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,200 That process is being run by Ambassador 106 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Bass is an interagency effort and and 107 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,690 we contribute to that with a dedicated 108 00:05:19,690 --> 00:05:22,740 general Oscar as a part of that . Uh in 109 00:05:22,740 --> 00:05:26,400 terms of uh the the 110 00:05:26,410 --> 00:05:28,650 evacuees or the guests that are being 111 00:05:28,660 --> 00:05:32,050 housed in our installations , uh 112 00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:33,504 Department of Defense has 113 00:05:33,504 --> 00:05:37,200 responsibility for uh for housing them 114 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,670 and for their care and feeding uh in 115 00:05:39,670 --> 00:05:43,210 terms of uh rian or integrating them 116 00:05:43,210 --> 00:05:46,750 into our society . Uh DHS and 117 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,020 uh and state really are leading that 118 00:05:49,020 --> 00:05:51,300 process . Uh And I agree with you . 119 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:53,522 It's very important that we do this the 120 00:05:53,522 --> 00:05:55,689 right way and it's very important that 121 00:05:55,689 --> 00:05:59,540 we do this uh carefully but as rapidly 122 00:05:59,540 --> 00:06:02,180 as possible because we do have , you 123 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:04,402 know , Children that need education and 124 00:06:04,402 --> 00:06:06,690 all those kinds of things uh in the 125 00:06:06,690 --> 00:06:08,634 meantime , D . O . D . Will remain 126 00:06:08,634 --> 00:06:10,801 cited on making sure that they receive 127 00:06:10,801 --> 00:06:13,090 the very best care uh and uh and we 128 00:06:13,090 --> 00:06:15,034 provide for their safety as well . 129 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:18,960 Thank you . Senator Fisher , please . 130 00:06:19,940 --> 00:06:21,960 Thank you . Mr Chairman General 131 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,090 Mackenzie . At the beginning of this 132 00:06:25,090 --> 00:06:28,050 hearing , Chairman read made a comment 133 00:06:28,060 --> 00:06:31,290 about the goal and mission that we're 134 00:06:31,290 --> 00:06:33,179 going to be looking at now in the 135 00:06:33,179 --> 00:06:35,820 future is to assure that Afghanistan 136 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:38,390 never again can be used as a base for 137 00:06:38,390 --> 00:06:42,350 terrorists . And as we as 138 00:06:42,350 --> 00:06:44,406 we look at that goal , as we look at 139 00:06:44,406 --> 00:06:46,461 that mission , I think we need to be 140 00:06:46,461 --> 00:06:48,628 honest with the american people on how 141 00:06:48,628 --> 00:06:51,140 that will be accomplished . I don't 142 00:06:51,150 --> 00:06:53,170 think the american people should be 143 00:06:53,170 --> 00:06:56,160 misled about um 144 00:06:56,540 --> 00:07:00,260 capabilities that are needed to make 145 00:07:00,260 --> 00:07:03,890 sure that we can conduct over the 146 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:06,860 horizon counterterrorism operations , 147 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,370 President biden has pointed out that we 148 00:07:10,370 --> 00:07:12,314 conduct over the horizon . C . T . 149 00:07:12,314 --> 00:07:15,040 Operations to go after terrorists and 150 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,070 other places in the world including 151 00:07:17,070 --> 00:07:20,010 Isis in Syria , al Qaeda in Yemen Al 152 00:07:20,010 --> 00:07:23,600 Shabaab in Somalia , General Mackenzie . 153 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,990 And those three locations , we have 154 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,600 either a US presence or reliable 155 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,433 partners on the ground . Is that 156 00:07:31,433 --> 00:07:34,160 correct ? Senator , that's correct . 157 00:07:34,910 --> 00:07:37,250 And in those three locations 158 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:41,870 do we have strike assets or basin 159 00:07:41,870 --> 00:07:43,760 agreements in nearby countries 160 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,310 at the level of this briefing ? Yes we 161 00:07:48,310 --> 00:07:51,750 do . Okay . General Mackenzie when the 162 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:53,917 department developed its initial plans 163 00:07:53,917 --> 00:07:56,420 for an over the horizon approach to 164 00:07:56,420 --> 00:07:59,150 counterterrorism in Afghanistan . Did 165 00:07:59,150 --> 00:08:01,094 those plans assume that the Afghan 166 00:08:01,094 --> 00:08:04,270 security forces would serve as our 167 00:08:04,270 --> 00:08:06,920 partner on the ground ? So we developed 168 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:08,976 plans that were neutral on that . We 169 00:08:08,976 --> 00:08:11,198 developed a spectrum of options ranging 170 00:08:11,198 --> 00:08:13,309 from , we would have robust help from 171 00:08:13,309 --> 00:08:15,420 some future government in Afghanistan 172 00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:17,476 to a situation which is what we have 173 00:08:17,476 --> 00:08:19,642 now , where we would have no help from 174 00:08:19,642 --> 00:08:21,753 the government of Afghanistan . So we 175 00:08:21,753 --> 00:08:23,809 developed options across that entire 176 00:08:23,809 --> 00:08:26,650 span of future possibilities . But as 177 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,807 we developed the options , you develop 178 00:08:29,807 --> 00:08:32,640 the options and the reality is now that 179 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,751 we didn't see this collapse coming so 180 00:08:34,751 --> 00:08:37,270 quickly and we don't have partners on 181 00:08:37,270 --> 00:08:40,180 the ground . Is that correct ? We 182 00:08:40,180 --> 00:08:43,300 always had a a one of the options for C . 183 00:08:43,300 --> 00:08:45,520 T . In Afghanistan would be that we 184 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,631 would be in a state where there would 185 00:08:47,631 --> 00:08:49,631 be no diplomatic presence there and 186 00:08:49,631 --> 00:08:49,590 there would be no help from the 187 00:08:49,590 --> 00:08:51,812 government of Afghanistan . So from the 188 00:08:51,812 --> 00:08:53,979 beginning we always saw that as one of 189 00:08:53,979 --> 00:08:55,979 the one of the possible futures and 190 00:08:55,979 --> 00:08:58,312 that's the situation we're in right now . 191 00:08:58,312 --> 00:09:00,201 That is correct . You stated that 192 00:09:00,201 --> 00:09:02,368 during the evacuation , we developed a 193 00:09:02,368 --> 00:09:04,810 pragmatic relationship with the taliban . 194 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,780 But you're not saying we should 195 00:09:07,780 --> 00:09:10,770 consider the taliban to be a reliable 196 00:09:10,770 --> 00:09:12,881 partner by any means , are you ? I do 197 00:09:12,881 --> 00:09:14,714 not trust the taliban . I do not 198 00:09:14,714 --> 00:09:16,826 consider the taliban to be a reliable 199 00:09:16,826 --> 00:09:18,992 partner and any time you deal with the 200 00:09:18,992 --> 00:09:18,920 Taliban , you have to look at what they 201 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,770 do and not what they say . General 202 00:09:21,770 --> 00:09:24,380 Mackenzie , Yemen Syria and Somalia all 203 00:09:24,380 --> 00:09:28,110 border and ocean or sea and we can use 204 00:09:28,110 --> 00:09:30,810 carriers or other sea based assets to 205 00:09:30,810 --> 00:09:34,200 conduct cT operations . Afghanistan 206 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,367 however , is a landlocked country , so 207 00:09:36,367 --> 00:09:39,050 we cannot use our sea based assets in 208 00:09:39,050 --> 00:09:42,100 the same way . Are near strike bass or 209 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:45,170 are near space in in Qatar is about 210 00:09:45,170 --> 00:09:47,780 1600 miles away from northern 211 00:09:47,780 --> 00:09:51,140 Afghanistan . So our strike assets are 212 00:09:51,140 --> 00:09:53,850 significantly further from potential 213 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:56,320 targets than they are another operating 214 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,580 locations . Is it fair to say that it 215 00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:01,910 is more difficult to hit targets that 216 00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:04,077 are further away from where the strike 217 00:10:04,077 --> 00:10:07,770 asset is based , Senator in general . 218 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:10,002 Uh , that's a factor . But I would tell 219 00:10:10,002 --> 00:10:12,058 you because of our ability to refuel 220 00:10:12,058 --> 00:10:14,113 aircraft to position . For example , 221 00:10:14,113 --> 00:10:16,280 during the withdrawal , we position to 222 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,558 carry off the Micron coast of Pakistan , 223 00:10:18,558 --> 00:10:20,724 which shorten the range considerably . 224 00:10:20,724 --> 00:10:22,558 So there are ways to get to that 225 00:10:22,558 --> 00:10:24,502 finished solution , Senator , if I 226 00:10:24,502 --> 00:10:26,724 could just add , it is not the finished 227 00:10:26,724 --> 00:10:28,891 part of the problem . That is the most 228 00:10:28,891 --> 00:10:31,002 difficult part of the problem . It is 229 00:10:31,002 --> 00:10:33,002 the finding and fixing the target . 230 00:10:33,002 --> 00:10:34,613 That where we run into great 231 00:10:34,613 --> 00:10:36,780 difficulties , particularly associated 232 00:10:36,780 --> 00:10:38,836 with Afghanistan because of , as you 233 00:10:38,836 --> 00:10:41,002 noted , its landlocked location , it's 234 00:10:41,002 --> 00:10:43,169 great range from our bases . And while 235 00:10:43,169 --> 00:10:43,090 we do have platforms that can fly in 236 00:10:43,090 --> 00:10:45,257 there , it eats up a lot of time and a 237 00:10:45,257 --> 00:10:47,090 lot of platforms to conduct that 238 00:10:47,090 --> 00:10:49,146 mission . That's why I said from the 239 00:10:49,146 --> 00:10:51,368 beginning , it's hard to do . Very hard 240 00:10:51,368 --> 00:10:53,590 to do . It's not impossible to do . But 241 00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:55,701 there are , we can talk more about it 242 00:10:55,701 --> 00:10:57,868 in a closed session . Right . And it's 243 00:10:57,868 --> 00:11:00,034 hard because a lack of partners on the 244 00:11:00,034 --> 00:11:02,146 ground , that is a significant factor 245 00:11:02,146 --> 00:11:04,368 that you look at . When you look at any 246 00:11:04,368 --> 00:11:06,312 ct operation of this to even reach 247 00:11:06,312 --> 00:11:08,479 Afghanistan , our strike assets , they 248 00:11:08,479 --> 00:11:10,590 have to fly over other countries . So 249 00:11:10,590 --> 00:11:12,812 without an agreement from Central Asian 250 00:11:12,812 --> 00:11:15,050 nations north of Afghanistan , is it 251 00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:16,939 accurate that were reliant on the 252 00:11:16,939 --> 00:11:19,950 continued use of Pakistani airspace for 253 00:11:19,950 --> 00:11:23,300 our over the horizon strategy , 254 00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:26,280 Senator you are correct . And that is 255 00:11:26,290 --> 00:11:28,860 um that is not a sure thing for the 256 00:11:28,860 --> 00:11:30,800 future , correct . So I wouldn't 257 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,911 predict the future . I know they were 258 00:11:32,911 --> 00:11:35,022 very supportive during the last phase 259 00:11:35,022 --> 00:11:37,078 or our engagement in Afghanistan . I 260 00:11:37,078 --> 00:11:39,022 think we're now talking to them at 261 00:11:39,022 --> 00:11:40,911 various levels about how we might 262 00:11:40,911 --> 00:11:43,078 maintain the ability to do that in the 263 00:11:43,078 --> 00:11:42,650 future . But I wouldn't want to get out 264 00:11:42,650 --> 00:11:44,872 ahead of the department , the Secretary 265 00:11:44,872 --> 00:11:46,872 and the policy people on this , but 266 00:11:46,872 --> 00:11:48,928 they also have a strong relationship 267 00:11:48,928 --> 00:11:50,817 with the Taliban . That would you 268 00:11:50,817 --> 00:11:52,983 consider that that's going to grow ? I 269 00:11:52,983 --> 00:11:55,206 would consider that they're going to be 270 00:11:55,206 --> 00:11:57,428 very conflicted about this as they have 271 00:11:57,428 --> 00:11:59,594 been for the last 20 years . Thank you 272 00:11:59,594 --> 00:12:01,817 very much . Senator fisher . Uh Senator 273 00:12:01,817 --> 00:12:03,928 Kaine , please thank you Mr Chair and 274 00:12:03,928 --> 00:12:03,790 to the witnesses . I guess I'll direct 275 00:12:03,790 --> 00:12:05,846 us to Secretary Austin . What is the 276 00:12:05,846 --> 00:12:08,012 administration's current best estimate 277 00:12:08,012 --> 00:12:10,179 of the number of americans that are in 278 00:12:10,179 --> 00:12:14,060 Afghanistan Senator 279 00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:19,990 according to the state , There are 280 00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:21,920 currently fewer than 100 American 281 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,920 citizens who want to depart and are 282 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,770 ready to leave . We we got out 283 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:31,400 21 American citizens today along with 284 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,570 their family members . And we'll 285 00:12:33,570 --> 00:12:35,681 continue to work this as you've heard 286 00:12:35,681 --> 00:12:39,130 us say earlier . The numbers fluctuate 287 00:12:39,130 --> 00:12:42,960 daily . Um and because more people come 288 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,870 to light as time , uh time goes by and 289 00:12:45,870 --> 00:12:49,480 they see opportunities to uh to 290 00:12:49,490 --> 00:12:51,790 safely leave . And so this has been a 291 00:12:51,790 --> 00:12:53,901 dynamic process . But again , we will 292 00:12:53,901 --> 00:12:56,012 stay focused on this . I I understand 293 00:12:56,012 --> 00:12:58,234 that I am aware that you've had success 294 00:12:58,234 --> 00:13:00,234 in in getting americans out because 295 00:13:00,234 --> 00:13:02,234 I've advocated on behalf of some of 296 00:13:02,234 --> 00:13:04,234 them . And I've seen the results of 297 00:13:04,234 --> 00:13:06,012 your effort and I know you will 298 00:13:06,012 --> 00:13:07,846 continue that . Um If I remember 299 00:13:07,846 --> 00:13:09,623 correctly , there started to be 300 00:13:09,623 --> 00:13:11,234 communicated to americans in 301 00:13:11,234 --> 00:13:13,290 Afghanistan that they might possibly 302 00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:15,512 consider returning the United States as 303 00:13:15,512 --> 00:13:19,270 early as March . Is that correct ? Uh I 304 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,947 don't have knowledge of those 305 00:13:20,947 --> 00:13:23,113 communicates . I think that maybe from 306 00:13:23,113 --> 00:13:24,947 a from a foreign relations State 307 00:13:24,947 --> 00:13:27,058 Department standpoint , obviously you 308 00:13:27,058 --> 00:13:29,169 can't bring folks home who don't want 309 00:13:29,169 --> 00:13:31,113 to come home , but the number that 310 00:13:31,113 --> 00:13:33,002 you're currently looking at and I 311 00:13:33,002 --> 00:13:35,169 understand that it changes who wants , 312 00:13:35,169 --> 00:13:37,336 who want to come home is now less than 313 00:13:37,336 --> 00:13:39,502 100 . And I trust that you'll continue 314 00:13:39,502 --> 00:13:39,360 to be diligent about that to the 315 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,582 question that I posed in my first round 316 00:13:41,582 --> 00:13:43,638 of questions And General Mackenzie , 317 00:13:43,638 --> 00:13:45,804 I'd like to start with you , all three 318 00:13:45,804 --> 00:13:47,916 of you are our leaders , but you also 319 00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:50,027 have on the ground experience and you 320 00:13:50,027 --> 00:13:49,280 know , I know you have a deep 321 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,840 connection Afghanistan and people that 322 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,729 you fought together with and your 323 00:13:53,729 --> 00:13:55,840 partners and colleagues there as well 324 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,784 as the americans who sacrificed so 325 00:13:57,784 --> 00:13:59,790 bravely and for the purposes of the 326 00:13:59,790 --> 00:14:01,957 committee . We really want to dig into 327 00:14:01,957 --> 00:14:03,734 this question about why did the 328 00:14:03,734 --> 00:14:05,957 security forces and government fails so 329 00:14:05,957 --> 00:14:08,123 quickly ? Because it bears upon future 330 00:14:08,123 --> 00:14:10,068 train and assist efforts or future 331 00:14:10,068 --> 00:14:12,179 humanitarian efforts . Beginning with 332 00:14:12,179 --> 00:14:14,401 you , General Mackenzie , what are your 333 00:14:14,401 --> 00:14:16,401 own thoughts about the speed of the 334 00:14:16,401 --> 00:14:18,290 collapse of both the military and 335 00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:20,346 civilian government ? So senator , I 336 00:14:20,346 --> 00:14:20,280 believe that the collapse of the 337 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,058 military and the government are 338 00:14:22,058 --> 00:14:24,224 completely linked . You can't consider 339 00:14:24,224 --> 00:14:26,391 one without looking at the other . And 340 00:14:26,391 --> 00:14:28,336 I believe the probably the primary 341 00:14:28,336 --> 00:14:30,391 accelerant to I'll take the military 342 00:14:30,391 --> 00:14:32,558 side first . The primary accelerant to 343 00:14:32,558 --> 00:14:34,724 lowering morale and general efficiency 344 00:14:34,724 --> 00:14:36,780 of the Afghan military was what they 345 00:14:36,780 --> 00:14:38,780 saw coming on the heels of the Doha 346 00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:40,669 agreement , what they believe was 347 00:14:40,669 --> 00:14:42,836 forced upon them . And so I think that 348 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:45,002 had a negative effect . Plus as we get 349 00:14:45,002 --> 00:14:47,113 closer to the date that we're leaving 350 00:14:47,113 --> 00:14:49,336 the clear vision that the United States 351 00:14:49,336 --> 00:14:51,391 is going to leave and we're going to 352 00:14:51,391 --> 00:14:53,391 apply a system of at best , partial 353 00:14:53,391 --> 00:14:55,336 remedies from their perspective to 354 00:14:55,336 --> 00:14:57,391 continue the maintenance of not only 355 00:14:57,391 --> 00:14:57,060 the main the main force , the 356 00:14:57,060 --> 00:14:59,227 conventional force on the ground , but 357 00:14:59,227 --> 00:15:01,250 also the high really high priority 358 00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:03,417 items like their Air force and as I've 359 00:15:03,417 --> 00:15:05,306 noted before , we had an over the 360 00:15:05,306 --> 00:15:07,528 horizon solution to do that . It wasn't 361 00:15:07,528 --> 00:15:09,528 a perfect solution , but it was our 362 00:15:09,528 --> 00:15:09,200 best attempt to do that . So I think 363 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,144 that affected the military . But I 364 00:15:11,144 --> 00:15:13,700 would tell you what , I think the D . N . 365 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:15,880 A . Of those afghan soldiers is the 366 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,080 same . DNA the Taliban had the taliban 367 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,500 fought pretty hard . And uh so I think 368 00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:22,500 it comes down to will to combat and 369 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:24,556 fighting spirit . And I think that's 370 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:26,222 where you get the link to the 371 00:15:26,222 --> 00:15:28,167 government of Afghanistan and when 372 00:15:28,167 --> 00:15:30,389 you're president leaves suddenly in the 373 00:15:30,389 --> 00:15:30,380 middle of a campaign for the capital . 374 00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:33,320 Uh I think that finishes any chance at 375 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,376 all . You might have had of making a 376 00:15:35,376 --> 00:15:37,653 stand there and that wasn't , you know , 377 00:15:37,653 --> 00:15:37,640 there were signals before then of 378 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,696 disaffection and fractures in the in 379 00:15:39,696 --> 00:15:42,029 the in the Afghan government . You know , 380 00:15:42,029 --> 00:15:44,196 probably better people than me to talk 381 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:46,418 about that . But I think all those came 382 00:15:46,418 --> 00:15:45,820 together and had a very powerful 383 00:15:45,820 --> 00:15:48,330 negative synergy towards the end . And 384 00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:50,386 this is not new . It's we we've been 385 00:15:50,386 --> 00:15:52,719 able to see it for years . But you know , 386 00:15:52,719 --> 00:15:54,941 senator , the one point I would make is 387 00:15:54,941 --> 00:15:54,760 this is not inherently a military 388 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,270 problem . There are larger factors here 389 00:15:57,270 --> 00:15:59,492 than just the U . S . Military and what 390 00:15:59,492 --> 00:16:01,326 we did or didn't do training the 391 00:16:01,326 --> 00:16:03,381 Afghans trial pause there to to your 392 00:16:03,381 --> 00:16:05,603 last point of the two points you made , 393 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,942 you can have the best fighting force in 394 00:16:07,942 --> 00:16:09,887 the world . But if they don't have 395 00:16:09,887 --> 00:16:11,776 confidence in there , military or 396 00:16:11,776 --> 00:16:13,998 political leadership , it's hard , it's 397 00:16:13,998 --> 00:16:16,220 hard for them to put it all on the line 398 00:16:16,220 --> 00:16:15,140 for a leadership that they lack 399 00:16:15,140 --> 00:16:17,400 confidence in the leadership to 400 00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:19,632 Secretary Austrian General Milley . Any 401 00:16:19,632 --> 00:16:23,400 additional thoughts ? The three choices 402 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,622 that you that you laid off for us ? Was 403 00:16:25,622 --> 00:16:28,420 your questions were uh was it because 404 00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:30,580 of insufficient training was because 405 00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:32,890 the troops were demoralized or was it 406 00:16:32,890 --> 00:16:35,057 because we wanted things for them more 407 00:16:35,057 --> 00:16:37,420 than they wanted it for themselves . I 408 00:16:37,420 --> 00:16:39,760 would agree with General Mackenzie that 409 00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:42,740 you know , the Doha agreement had a 410 00:16:42,740 --> 00:16:45,600 significant impact on the on the morale 411 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,440 of the of the troops . But I would I 412 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,470 would say that's compounded by weak 413 00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:52,450 leadership , corruption in the 414 00:16:52,450 --> 00:16:55,820 government . Uh and uh and you know , 415 00:16:55,820 --> 00:16:59,080 the fact that you know the Taliban made 416 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,150 a concerted effort to uh to 417 00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:05,440 to really reach out to provincial 418 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,550 leaders uh and uh and convince them 419 00:17:08,550 --> 00:17:10,550 that the Taliban was going to be in 420 00:17:10,550 --> 00:17:12,717 charge . So they might as well sign up 421 00:17:12,717 --> 00:17:14,550 with them early on . My time has 422 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:16,717 expired at your beck thank you . Thank 423 00:17:16,717 --> 00:17:16,330 you Senator Kennedy Senator Cotton , 424 00:17:16,330 --> 00:17:18,497 please General Milley in the final two 425 00:17:18,497 --> 00:17:21,120 pages of your uh written statement , 426 00:17:21,130 --> 00:17:22,908 you lay out some details of the 427 00:17:22,908 --> 00:17:25,019 circumstances of your phone calls for 428 00:17:25,019 --> 00:17:27,019 the chinese counterparts on october 429 00:17:27,019 --> 00:17:29,186 30th 2020 ? In january 2021 . You also 430 00:17:29,186 --> 00:17:31,241 say you'd be happy to make available 431 00:17:31,241 --> 00:17:33,352 various documents . I want to ask for 432 00:17:33,352 --> 00:17:35,408 three second documents if we can get 433 00:17:35,408 --> 00:17:37,574 them . I think the first two should be 434 00:17:37,574 --> 00:17:39,797 fairly straightforward . Um when can we 435 00:17:39,797 --> 00:17:41,908 get the list of people who joined you 436 00:17:41,908 --> 00:17:44,074 on those calls by name and by title US 437 00:17:44,074 --> 00:17:46,340 officials to could we get a list of 438 00:17:46,340 --> 00:17:48,780 similar calls you have made to your 439 00:17:48,790 --> 00:17:51,560 military counterparts around the world . 440 00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:54,480 From say september 1 441 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,360 2022 january 20th 442 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:01,080 2021 . Again I think that should not be 443 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,080 an issue . That should not have any 444 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,191 classified information . Uh Third you 445 00:18:05,191 --> 00:18:07,191 mentioned in that written statement 446 00:18:07,191 --> 00:18:09,358 that you shortly after those two phone 447 00:18:09,358 --> 00:18:11,136 calls with generally circulated 448 00:18:11,136 --> 00:18:13,358 readouts within the pentagon and inside 449 00:18:13,358 --> 00:18:15,540 the inner agency uh um Partners you 450 00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:18,420 have um Could could we get that those 451 00:18:18,420 --> 00:18:21,370 readouts as well ? Secretary Austin , 452 00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:23,920 can I get your commitment that you work 453 00:18:23,930 --> 00:18:26,041 with ? General Milley and his team to 454 00:18:26,041 --> 00:18:27,930 get that to us both as quickly as 455 00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:29,763 possible and without unnecessary 456 00:18:29,763 --> 00:18:31,930 classification ? Yes . Senator . Thank 457 00:18:31,930 --> 00:18:35,930 you . Um Secretary Austin on May 8th 458 00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:38,950 you conducted at the pentagon . What's 459 00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:41,006 known as a rehearsal concept drill ? 460 00:18:41,006 --> 00:18:42,950 Also called a rock drill . Is that 461 00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:44,950 right ? That's correct . And that's 462 00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:47,117 pretty important . Especially for such 463 00:18:47,117 --> 00:18:49,450 a significant decision as withdrawing 464 00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:51,394 from Afghanistan . Is that right ? 465 00:18:51,394 --> 00:18:53,283 That's correct . Um And it's been 466 00:18:53,283 --> 00:18:55,339 reported that you attended ? General 467 00:18:55,339 --> 00:18:57,117 Milley attended jake . Sullivan 468 00:18:57,117 --> 00:18:59,283 attended Bill Burns attended . Is that 469 00:18:59,283 --> 00:19:01,283 correct ? That's correct . Did Tony 470 00:19:01,283 --> 00:19:03,450 Blinken attend ? His deputy attended ? 471 00:19:03,450 --> 00:19:05,783 Senator is # two . Deputy Wendy Sherman . 472 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,910 No . Uh Right . McKenna 473 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,864 McKenna is No . three Deputy Brian 474 00:19:11,864 --> 00:19:14,087 McKeon . Do you know where Tony Blinken 475 00:19:14,087 --> 00:19:16,560 was on Saturday May 8 ? I don't I don't 476 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,430 do you know if he used any Dodie 477 00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:23,580 resources to travel Between May seven 478 00:19:23,580 --> 00:19:27,430 and May 10 ? I can certainly find 479 00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:29,597 out . But that's not something I was . 480 00:19:29,597 --> 00:19:31,708 I understand . It's not right at your 481 00:19:31,708 --> 00:19:33,652 fingertips . But I think we should 482 00:19:33,652 --> 00:19:33,150 probably get it pretty quickly . I'd 483 00:19:33,150 --> 00:19:35,317 like to know if Secretary Blinken used 484 00:19:35,317 --> 00:19:38,380 any diode assets , Whether aircraft or 485 00:19:38,380 --> 00:19:41,000 air basis or personnel aircrews or 486 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,060 ground crews to travel between May 487 00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:47,760 seven 2021 and May 10 2021 . 488 00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:52,220 Thank you for that . Secretary Austin , 489 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:55,670 um Who chose September 11 is the date 490 00:19:55,670 --> 00:19:57,448 by which we would withdraw from 491 00:19:57,448 --> 00:19:58,448 Afghanistan ? 492 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,150 Um , I'm not sure that we'll certainly 493 00:20:05,150 --> 00:20:07,428 that was not a military recommendation , 494 00:20:07,428 --> 00:20:09,760 but the military , when asked to 495 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,704 provide an estimate of how long it 496 00:20:11,704 --> 00:20:13,704 would take , uh , to retrograde our 497 00:20:13,704 --> 00:20:16,740 people and equipment . That that number 498 00:20:16,750 --> 00:20:19,910 could fell in a range of possibly up to 499 00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:22,590 120 days , but certainly much shorter 500 00:20:22,590 --> 00:20:25,280 than that . If uh , if we were 501 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,391 uncontested . And as it turned out we 502 00:20:27,391 --> 00:20:29,558 were uncontested . That date takes you 503 00:20:29,558 --> 00:20:31,669 to the end of the end of august , I'm 504 00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:33,669 sorry . Secretary . Secretary of my 505 00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:35,724 time is limited . So can you tell me 506 00:20:35,724 --> 00:20:37,558 who it was that directed you the 507 00:20:37,558 --> 00:20:39,669 Secretary of Defense , that september 508 00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:41,724 11th was the date by which you would 509 00:20:41,724 --> 00:20:41,590 complete the withdrawal . Nobody 510 00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:44,580 directed us that . September 11th was 511 00:20:44,580 --> 00:20:46,580 the date that we would complete . I 512 00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:48,636 think that was that was an objective 513 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:50,969 that was laid out by the administration . 514 00:20:50,969 --> 00:20:50,150 I believe the president announced that 515 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,104 in mid april when he announced the 516 00:20:52,104 --> 00:20:54,271 decision , someone had to come up with 517 00:20:54,271 --> 00:20:56,493 that date . You can't recall who it was 518 00:20:56,493 --> 00:20:58,549 that recommended September 11 . That 519 00:20:58,549 --> 00:20:58,380 was not a military recommendation . 520 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,607 General Miller , is there any military 521 00:21:00,607 --> 00:21:02,329 significance to withdrawing by 522 00:21:02,329 --> 00:21:05,050 September 11 ? I don't know who come up 523 00:21:05,050 --> 00:21:07,106 with it . Sure . The significance of 524 00:21:07,106 --> 00:21:09,328 september 11 . General Mackenzie , It's 525 00:21:09,328 --> 00:21:11,550 been reported by NBC news that you told 526 00:21:11,550 --> 00:21:14,230 Taliban leader Vardar on august 15th 527 00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:16,286 that they took Kabul . We would bomb 528 00:21:16,286 --> 00:21:18,286 them . They obviously took Kabul on 529 00:21:18,286 --> 00:21:20,452 august 15th . We didn't bomb them . Is 530 00:21:20,452 --> 00:21:22,341 a report that you told him that , 531 00:21:22,341 --> 00:21:22,300 correct ? That report is incorrect . 532 00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:25,820 It's incorrect . Thank you . Um General 533 00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:28,280 Mackenzie , why did we not conduct 534 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,600 ground patrols into Kabul ? The french ? 535 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,822 Did the british , did the Germans , did 536 00:21:33,340 --> 00:21:35,730 we stepped outside the gates , We flew 537 00:21:35,740 --> 00:21:37,970 chinooks out to police up our people . 538 00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:40,081 Why did we not conduct ground patrols 539 00:21:40,081 --> 00:21:42,303 that are actually , I don't believe any 540 00:21:42,303 --> 00:21:44,192 of those nations conducted ground 541 00:21:44,192 --> 00:21:46,248 patrols into Kabul from Hk I believe 542 00:21:46,248 --> 00:21:48,414 that the british went out to what they 543 00:21:48,414 --> 00:21:50,303 call the Baron Hotel , which is a 544 00:21:50,303 --> 00:21:52,710 facility located about 150 m off the uh 545 00:21:52,740 --> 00:21:54,907 compound and they did business there . 546 00:21:54,907 --> 00:21:57,390 But no one conducted ground patrols off 547 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,456 from h chi going out . In fact , I'm 548 00:21:59,456 --> 00:22:01,456 very confident of that based on , I 549 00:22:01,456 --> 00:22:03,678 looked into it with my commander on the 550 00:22:03,678 --> 00:22:05,844 ground . So I'm quite confident when I 551 00:22:05,844 --> 00:22:05,670 make that assertion . Thank you . 552 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,951 Secretary Austin one Final Question . 553 00:22:07,951 --> 00:22:10,880 Um obviously this is uh an issue on 554 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,713 which many of our troops and our 555 00:22:12,713 --> 00:22:14,936 veterans feel very passionately on both 556 00:22:14,936 --> 00:22:17,980 sides of the issue . Um One of those 557 00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:20,230 service members , uh Marine Colonel 558 00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:23,410 Stewart Sheller posted a very critical 559 00:22:23,410 --> 00:22:25,632 video on social media last month and he 560 00:22:25,632 --> 00:22:27,688 was relieved of his command for that 561 00:22:27,688 --> 00:22:29,521 posting . Uh Media reports today 562 00:22:29,521 --> 00:22:31,410 indicate that he is being held in 563 00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:34,940 pretrial confinement . Why is that ? I 564 00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:37,172 don't have any specifics of what caused 565 00:22:37,172 --> 00:22:39,506 him to be held in pre trial confinement . 566 00:22:39,506 --> 00:22:41,930 Uh And I would , I would certainly ask 567 00:22:41,930 --> 00:22:44,330 the marines to provide uh that insight . 568 00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:47,320 So thank you Senator Cotton Senator 569 00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:51,170 King , please . Uh do you need them 570 00:22:51,940 --> 00:22:52,660 the moment 571 00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:10,130 discussion that we've had thus far 572 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:14,130 today is a Peculiar 573 00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:17,270 one About decisions . And the 574 00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:19,870 assumption seems to be that You could 575 00:23:19,870 --> 00:23:21,981 make a different decision for example 576 00:23:21,981 --> 00:23:24,860 on August 31 and everything would have 577 00:23:24,860 --> 00:23:27,082 been okay and we would have gotten more 578 00:23:27,082 --> 00:23:29,460 people out . My understanding , General 579 00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:31,680 Milley is that it was your view That 580 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,569 making that decision to go beyond 581 00:23:33,569 --> 00:23:35,513 August 31 and I'm using this as an 582 00:23:35,513 --> 00:23:38,250 example would have had consequences 583 00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:40,440 which you and your colleagues judged 584 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,350 would be far more damaging and 585 00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:45,980 dangerous to american lives . Then the 586 00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:48,790 decision to leave on August 31 , 587 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,000 including being back at war with the 588 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,030 taliban subject to terrorist attacks 589 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,510 and subject to uh , perhaps airplanes 590 00:23:58,510 --> 00:24:02,000 being shot down by the taliban . Can 591 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,470 you , uh , am I right about this ? 592 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,170 Where the risk calculus was , 593 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,970 That's correct . Senator , we said , uh , 594 00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:12,980 risk to mission , risk to force and 595 00:24:12,980 --> 00:24:15,202 risks to remaining american citizens in 596 00:24:15,202 --> 00:24:17,510 Afghanistan was gonna go to extremely 597 00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:19,800 high . Beginning one September if we 598 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,689 stayed past 31st with us military 599 00:24:21,689 --> 00:24:23,911 forces and you use that term risk , the 600 00:24:23,911 --> 00:24:25,856 mission risk of forces , a kind of 601 00:24:25,856 --> 00:24:28,078 that's a descriptive phrase . But we're 602 00:24:28,078 --> 00:24:30,189 talking about potentially hundreds of 603 00:24:30,189 --> 00:24:32,189 american lives . Where are we not ? 604 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,896 Well , when we saw Krista for us was 605 00:24:34,896 --> 00:24:36,784 specifically talking casualties , 606 00:24:36,784 --> 00:24:38,673 killed and wounded . Uh , and our 607 00:24:38,673 --> 00:24:40,980 estimate , my estimate at the time , 608 00:24:40,990 --> 00:24:43,520 this is 25 August we're talking about 609 00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:45,870 is if we go to war with the Taliban on 610 00:24:45,870 --> 00:24:48,092 one September , there were 6000 Taliban 611 00:24:48,092 --> 00:24:50,550 and 56 checkpoints in Kabul at that 612 00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:52,883 time , we would have had to clear Kabul . 613 00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:56,200 We've had a recess bagram and in the 614 00:24:56,210 --> 00:24:58,154 road , 30 miles of road in between 615 00:24:58,154 --> 00:25:00,321 Bagram and Kabul that would have taken 616 00:25:00,321 --> 00:25:02,488 a significant amount of forest . We're 617 00:25:02,488 --> 00:25:04,654 looking at part of core operation . We 618 00:25:04,654 --> 00:25:06,710 probably , my guess is that we would 619 00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:08,877 have had significant amounts of killed 620 00:25:08,877 --> 00:25:11,043 and wounded . Exact numbers are always 621 00:25:11,043 --> 00:25:10,180 imprecise when you're doing those kinds 622 00:25:10,180 --> 00:25:12,291 of estimates , but it would have been 623 00:25:12,291 --> 00:25:14,236 significant US military killed and 624 00:25:14,236 --> 00:25:14,120 wounded and the remaining american 625 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,120 citizens would have been at greater 626 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,287 risk . You mentioned we'd have to have 627 00:25:18,287 --> 00:25:20,630 to retake in Kabul . They had 6000 628 00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:22,820 troops . As I remember discussions in 629 00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:24,820 this committee when we were talking 630 00:25:24,820 --> 00:25:27,130 about retaking Mosul . The general 631 00:25:27,130 --> 00:25:29,352 accepted rule of thumb is that it takes 632 00:25:29,352 --> 00:25:33,320 10 troops to dislodge one in in a 633 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,170 city that dislodging troops in a city 634 00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:38,740 is very difficult and takes a large 635 00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:40,900 number of attacking troops . Is that 636 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:43,570 correct ? It is . But the disposition 637 00:25:43,570 --> 00:25:45,737 and composition of Taliban in Kabul at 638 00:25:45,737 --> 00:25:47,848 that time was not the same as Isis in 639 00:25:47,848 --> 00:25:50,014 Mosul . Mosul was a prepared defense . 640 00:25:50,014 --> 00:25:52,070 They were dug in there , ready to go 641 00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:54,237 underground positions , etcetera . The 642 00:25:54,237 --> 00:25:56,459 Taliban had just moved in . So it would 643 00:25:56,459 --> 00:25:56,410 have been not that level of fight that 644 00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:58,521 you saw in Mosul , but it still would 645 00:25:58,521 --> 00:26:00,466 have been significant . 12,000 And 646 00:26:00,466 --> 00:26:02,410 you're in an urban area about five 647 00:26:02,410 --> 00:26:02,290 million people . So it would have been 648 00:26:02,290 --> 00:26:04,457 a significant level of effort and what 649 00:26:04,457 --> 00:26:06,401 have resulted in significant U . S 650 00:26:06,401 --> 00:26:08,860 casualties . Thank you . Um 651 00:26:12,940 --> 00:26:15,650 Do you know , and I want to be clear on 652 00:26:15,650 --> 00:26:17,872 this . There was a deadline in the Doha 653 00:26:17,872 --> 00:26:20,094 Agreement of March 10 for the beginning 654 00:26:20,094 --> 00:26:21,539 of negotiations . Did the 655 00:26:21,539 --> 00:26:23,094 administration , the former 656 00:26:23,094 --> 00:26:25,690 administration make any objections or 657 00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:28,000 raise problems with the Taliban because 658 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,167 of their failure to meet that deadline 659 00:26:30,167 --> 00:26:32,389 or indeed to ever meet that deadline in 660 00:26:32,389 --> 00:26:34,500 terms of negotiations with the afghan 661 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:36,444 government . I don't have personal 662 00:26:36,444 --> 00:26:38,611 knowledge of that Zell cal is it might 663 00:26:38,611 --> 00:26:40,667 be a good one or former Secretary of 664 00:26:40,667 --> 00:26:42,556 State but I don't personally know 665 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,060 General Mackenzie . I don't want to go 666 00:26:48,060 --> 00:26:50,282 over the same ground . But do you agree 667 00:26:50,282 --> 00:26:52,338 with General Milley that had we gone 668 00:26:52,338 --> 00:26:55,050 beyond august 31st ? That decision 669 00:26:55,050 --> 00:26:57,161 wasn't just oh we're going to abandon 670 00:26:57,161 --> 00:27:00,550 americans . It was if we leave if we 671 00:27:00,550 --> 00:27:03,150 stay until september 1st we would have 672 00:27:03,150 --> 00:27:05,317 to make an additional troop commitment 673 00:27:05,317 --> 00:27:07,430 and our troops would be at risk . Is 674 00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:09,486 that correct ? Senator ? That that's 675 00:27:09,486 --> 00:27:11,597 exactly correct . And actually in the 676 00:27:11,597 --> 00:27:13,930 meeting and the tank with the J . C . S . 677 00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:13,480 I was the principal briefer who 678 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,536 advanced that argument and that does 679 00:27:15,536 --> 00:27:17,780 reflect my position . Thank you . Thank 680 00:27:17,780 --> 00:27:19,740 you . Mr . Chairman , thank you . 681 00:27:19,750 --> 00:27:22,740 Senator . King . Center rounds please 682 00:27:22,780 --> 00:27:24,460 thank you . Mr . Chairman 683 00:27:27,740 --> 00:27:29,907 in listening to your testimony today . 684 00:27:29,907 --> 00:27:32,180 And I've appreciated the amount of 685 00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:34,710 effort that you put into being very 686 00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:38,350 clear with us . It seems to me that 687 00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:42,980 we have left a power void in 688 00:27:43,050 --> 00:27:45,840 Central asia that has already increased 689 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,090 the threat of terrorism and has 690 00:27:48,090 --> 00:27:50,390 provided significant opportunities to 691 00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:53,930 our adversaries . Uh Secretary 692 00:27:53,930 --> 00:27:55,820 Austin a little while ago . You 693 00:27:55,820 --> 00:27:58,040 indicated that and I believe your term 694 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,950 was that if we would have had to have 695 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,270 made it earlier withdrawal perhaps in 696 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,840 april or May that it would have been 697 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,980 very very difficult to have had had 698 00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:10,091 that completed in an orderly manner . 699 00:28:10,091 --> 00:28:12,130 And I think that's the way that you 700 00:28:12,130 --> 00:28:14,560 described it . Is that correct sir ? 701 00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:18,620 That's correct sir . I think also sir 702 00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:21,630 you would probably agree that the That 703 00:28:21,630 --> 00:28:25,470 the that the withdrawal on the August 704 00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:27,930 30 , August 31 deadline was probably 705 00:28:27,930 --> 00:28:30,560 not an orderly done in an orderly 706 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,300 manner either was it ? There are two 707 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:37,120 issues here Senator . If I'm a first of 708 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:39,460 all , you'll recall that we stated that 709 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,760 General Miller planned for an an 710 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,840 orderly evacuation of people and 711 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,910 retrograde of equipment . That plan was 712 00:28:48,910 --> 00:28:52,180 laid out . It was rehearsed and it was 713 00:28:52,190 --> 00:28:56,090 executed so that by early july all of 714 00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:57,868 the equipment that we wanted to 715 00:28:57,868 --> 00:29:00,190 retrograde had been retrograde ID . And 716 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,540 and most of the people were out except 717 00:29:02,540 --> 00:29:06,270 for a small element that was in around 718 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,060 the embassy and on H . Kaya . Right 719 00:29:10,140 --> 00:29:12,720 Mr . Secretary the american people 720 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,910 watched with horror on T . V . During 721 00:29:15,910 --> 00:29:18,260 the last days in august in which our 722 00:29:18,260 --> 00:29:21,020 young men and women in uniform not only 723 00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:23,920 died but they were in the middle of 724 00:29:23,930 --> 00:29:26,152 huge throngs of individuals desperately 725 00:29:26,152 --> 00:29:29,300 trying to get out . I don't believe 726 00:29:29,300 --> 00:29:31,356 that you would suggest that that was 727 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:33,870 being completed in an orderly manner . 728 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:37,830 So that's that's the second the second 729 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,860 operation was a noncombatant evacuation . 730 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,520 Which was I think you heard me say 731 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,040 early on Senator was we had some 732 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,320 challenging times early on . Uh we 733 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,431 recovered from that and we're able to 734 00:29:51,431 --> 00:29:53,487 act . You would mr trick , you would 735 00:29:53,487 --> 00:29:55,653 not consider that to have been done in 736 00:29:55,653 --> 00:29:57,876 an orderly manner , would you ? I would 737 00:29:57,876 --> 00:29:59,598 say overall we have we endured 738 00:29:59,598 --> 00:30:01,653 challenges . But but again , we were 739 00:30:01,653 --> 00:30:03,764 able to get out an enormous amount of 740 00:30:03,764 --> 00:30:05,709 people . I don't disagree that the 741 00:30:05,709 --> 00:30:07,542 young men and women who wear the 742 00:30:07,542 --> 00:30:07,440 uniform of this country on that 743 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,610 particular very challenging time period 744 00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:13,250 did everything they could . But clearly 745 00:30:13,250 --> 00:30:15,417 it was not in an orderly manner . They 746 00:30:15,417 --> 00:30:18,390 were in a very disastrous . And I think 747 00:30:18,390 --> 00:30:20,223 we would all agree a very deadly 748 00:30:20,223 --> 00:30:22,460 situation . Would you agree , sir ? 749 00:30:23,140 --> 00:30:25,870 Yeah . And you heard me say so . Uh 750 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,991 Senator that you know , it was a very 751 00:30:27,991 --> 00:30:30,158 dangerous situation that we're in . Uh 752 00:30:30,158 --> 00:30:32,102 and despite that they were able to 753 00:30:32,102 --> 00:30:34,158 fight , fight through the challenges 754 00:30:34,158 --> 00:30:37,610 and because of their heroic efforts uh 755 00:30:37,620 --> 00:30:40,760 we were able to do what we did . Mr 756 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,760 Secretary that the reason why I ask 757 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,593 this is because I think not only 758 00:30:44,593 --> 00:30:46,538 american citizens saw this , but I 759 00:30:46,538 --> 00:30:48,760 think our allies saw it as well . And I 760 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,816 think what they saw was first of all 761 00:30:50,816 --> 00:30:53,038 that because of the date certain rather 762 00:30:53,038 --> 00:30:54,982 than a conditions based withdrawal 763 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,207 because of a decision that was made by 764 00:30:57,207 --> 00:30:59,760 our president . Because of that . We 765 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,630 left american citizens behind and we 766 00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:04,990 did leave afghans behind who had served 767 00:31:04,990 --> 00:31:08,590 directly with our U . S . Forces . And 768 00:31:08,590 --> 00:31:10,646 it appears that many of them believe 769 00:31:10,646 --> 00:31:12,757 that we did not appropriately consult 770 00:31:12,757 --> 00:31:14,757 with them about our activities in a 771 00:31:14,757 --> 00:31:16,979 timely fashion . And finally to look at 772 00:31:16,979 --> 00:31:18,979 And to see american equipment being 773 00:31:18,979 --> 00:31:21,730 left there even if it's not quite ready 774 00:31:21,730 --> 00:31:23,841 for use . But most certainly there in 775 00:31:23,841 --> 00:31:26,990 the hands of the taliban did not help 776 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,670 our position with our allies . Sir . 777 00:31:30,540 --> 00:31:32,484 Let me just move on very quickly . 778 00:31:32,484 --> 00:31:34,651 General Milley I've I've got just less 779 00:31:34,651 --> 00:31:36,873 than a minute left on this and I I just 780 00:31:36,873 --> 00:31:38,818 wanted to comment . I I think your 781 00:31:38,818 --> 00:31:40,873 second statement in which you shared 782 00:31:40,873 --> 00:31:42,929 with the american people and with us 783 00:31:42,929 --> 00:31:45,840 today , an expression of how the in a 784 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,550 very unclassified way , how the nuclear 785 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,060 uh chain of command 786 00:31:53,060 --> 00:31:55,710 works part of this . And some of us 787 00:31:55,710 --> 00:31:57,877 have had the opportunity to observe in 788 00:31:57,877 --> 00:32:00,043 a table top exercise how that actually 789 00:32:00,043 --> 00:32:02,266 works with the process is working their 790 00:32:02,266 --> 00:32:04,432 way through what the president on down 791 00:32:04,432 --> 00:32:06,488 and the questions that are asked and 792 00:32:06,488 --> 00:32:08,710 the response is required and so forth . 793 00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:11,670 The 2022 nd A has some very specific 794 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,870 exercise requirements that the White 795 00:32:13,870 --> 00:32:16,680 House and other members are required to 796 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,480 follow through . Do you know if either 797 00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:23,920 President trump or President biden had 798 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,950 the opportunity to do a tabletop 799 00:32:25,950 --> 00:32:28,040 exercise and actually listen to the 800 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,207 questions that we're going to be asked 801 00:32:30,207 --> 00:32:32,040 of them . Should there ever be a 802 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,929 possibility of the use of nuclear 803 00:32:33,929 --> 00:32:37,900 weapons ? I do not know if either 804 00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:40,067 one president trump or President biden 805 00:32:40,067 --> 00:32:41,844 has gone through that table top 806 00:32:41,844 --> 00:32:44,460 exercise . Thank you once again , thank 807 00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:46,571 you gentlemen for your service to our 808 00:32:46,571 --> 00:32:48,571 country . Thank you . Center around 809 00:32:48,571 --> 00:32:51,450 center run . Oh please thank you . Mr 810 00:32:51,450 --> 00:32:55,150 Chairman . Uh 811 00:32:55,150 --> 00:32:58,640 huh . Secretary Austin , my colleague 812 00:32:58,650 --> 00:33:01,780 senator dot org mentioned the idea of 813 00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:04,100 an independent commission to evaluate 814 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:07,120 what happened before during after the 815 00:33:07,130 --> 00:33:10,790 uh war in Afghanistan . So uh Secretary 816 00:33:10,790 --> 00:33:13,610 Austin , are you open to such as an 817 00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:17,020 effort Senator ? I will 818 00:33:17,020 --> 00:33:19,260 always as you would expect always 819 00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:22,050 cooperate with uh with my oversight 820 00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:25,460 committee . Yes , because I for one 821 00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:27,790 very much agree that this is a 20 year 822 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,690 war and there are four presidents 823 00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:34,030 involved and I'd like to uh ensure that 824 00:33:34,030 --> 00:33:36,300 there are some lessons learned from a 825 00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:40,180 20 year forever war . And uh and 826 00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:42,330 at the same time and I feel that the 827 00:33:42,330 --> 00:33:44,330 republicans have made a total about 828 00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:46,552 about facing u turn regarding the war . 829 00:33:46,552 --> 00:33:48,774 I thought that they wanted to they wore 830 00:33:48,774 --> 00:33:50,997 to end and they were very supportive of 831 00:33:50,997 --> 00:33:53,052 President trump and he made the deal 832 00:33:53,052 --> 00:33:55,274 with the Taliban to get up . So there's 833 00:33:55,274 --> 00:33:57,386 that and clearly there are lessons to 834 00:33:57,386 --> 00:33:59,940 be learned in terms of the evacuation . 835 00:33:59,940 --> 00:34:03,370 But I think the decision to get us out 836 00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:05,426 of this forever war was a good one . 837 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,351 Secretary Ralston , the president , I 838 00:34:09,351 --> 00:34:12,380 want to move to a different topic . The 839 00:34:12,380 --> 00:34:14,580 president has touted the Afghanistan 840 00:34:14,580 --> 00:34:17,860 pull out as necessary to free up time 841 00:34:17,860 --> 00:34:19,693 and money to deal with near pure 842 00:34:20,140 --> 00:34:23,890 competitors like Russia and china but 843 00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:26,530 that stated rationale is somewhat I 844 00:34:26,530 --> 00:34:29,290 think at odds with the administration's 845 00:34:29,290 --> 00:34:31,430 budget which fails to align funding 846 00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:34,370 priorities with the line lines of 847 00:34:34,370 --> 00:34:37,220 effort identified in the Ndp com 848 00:34:37,220 --> 00:34:39,410 pacific deterrence initiative . 849 00:34:39,420 --> 00:34:41,587 Secretary Austin , I have brought this 850 00:34:41,587 --> 00:34:43,920 up before when we had a posture hearing . 851 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,087 So you don't have to get into it now , 852 00:34:46,087 --> 00:34:48,142 but I would very much appreciate the 853 00:34:48,142 --> 00:34:51,520 efforts and where we are in in terms of 854 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,980 meeting the five lines of effort under 855 00:34:53,980 --> 00:34:56,360 the pacific deterrence initiative . 856 00:34:56,740 --> 00:35:00,130 Could you provide us with that ? We can 857 00:35:00,130 --> 00:35:02,297 And I would just add senator that I've 858 00:35:02,297 --> 00:35:05,390 spent a fair amount of time with 859 00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:08,700 our combatant commander since we last 860 00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:12,200 talked . He's laid out his uh his plans 861 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,200 and his intent and I you know , I'm 862 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,050 fully uh behind the effort 863 00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:21,180 that he wants to undertake . And so we 864 00:35:21,180 --> 00:35:23,410 look forward to discussing that with 865 00:35:23,410 --> 00:35:25,610 you . Thank you . And along those same 866 00:35:25,610 --> 00:35:27,666 lines nuclear disarmament talks with 867 00:35:27,666 --> 00:35:30,210 North Korea remains stalled . And I'm 868 00:35:30,210 --> 00:35:32,543 concerned that steps taken by the D . O . 869 00:35:32,543 --> 00:35:34,940 D . Including zeroing out funding for 870 00:35:34,940 --> 00:35:37,490 the homeland defense radar Hawaii HDR H . 871 00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,460 Uh and objecting just last week to 872 00:35:40,460 --> 00:35:42,460 congressional action to reauthorize 873 00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:45,140 funds to keep that program on track , 874 00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:47,860 put Hawaii at risk in the near future . 875 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,850 And what is the ODS credible 876 00:35:49,850 --> 00:35:52,350 alternative to HDR a choice going 877 00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:55,420 forward ? This is the second time that 878 00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:57,770 congress has had to put back money for 879 00:35:57,770 --> 00:36:01,630 the for that uh radar . So what is the 880 00:36:01,630 --> 00:36:03,686 alternative that the D . O . D . Has 881 00:36:03,686 --> 00:36:07,440 that will protect hawaii . Well , 882 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,800 we uh capability that we currently have 883 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,440 hawaii is uh is protected . And again 884 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,662 this is an issue that we continue to uh 885 00:36:15,662 --> 00:36:19,210 to look at and and uh you can rest 886 00:36:19,210 --> 00:36:21,290 assured that Hawaii will not remain 887 00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:24,280 will not be unprotected . Well I know 888 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,447 that we're protected as of today . I'm 889 00:36:26,447 --> 00:36:30,050 looking at the future . So uh a lot of 890 00:36:30,050 --> 00:36:32,272 us have concerns about what is going to 891 00:36:32,272 --> 00:36:35,640 happen to the Afghani women and girls 892 00:36:35,650 --> 00:36:38,890 with the Taliban . Coming back . I'd be 893 00:36:38,890 --> 00:36:40,890 interested Secretary Austin to hear 894 00:36:40,890 --> 00:36:43,200 your perspective about concrete steps 895 00:36:43,210 --> 00:36:45,750 the U . S . Can take to influence a 896 00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:49,000 future for Afghan women and girls that 897 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,650 honors their human rights and freedoms . 898 00:36:53,030 --> 00:36:54,970 I certainly share your concern , 899 00:36:54,980 --> 00:36:57,290 senator and and the Taliban's track 900 00:36:57,300 --> 00:36:59,660 record on this is absolutely horrible . 901 00:37:00,030 --> 00:37:02,560 Uh we'll have to continue to we'll have 902 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,000 to work to use economic uh 903 00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:08,380 levers uh and also international 904 00:37:08,380 --> 00:37:10,710 pressure uh to hold the taliban 905 00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:12,932 accountable for some of the things that 906 00:37:12,932 --> 00:37:15,450 they said they were going to do . And 907 00:37:15,450 --> 00:37:17,617 again , I think this will be will have 908 00:37:17,617 --> 00:37:19,783 to be an international effort uh to to 909 00:37:19,783 --> 00:37:23,610 maintain pressure on the taliban . And 910 00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:25,666 at some point , I think we'd like to 911 00:37:25,666 --> 00:37:27,832 know , you know specifically what kind 912 00:37:27,832 --> 00:37:29,888 of international efforts are bearing 913 00:37:29,888 --> 00:37:31,721 fruit with regard to uh what the 914 00:37:31,721 --> 00:37:35,050 taliban is doing with the women and 915 00:37:35,060 --> 00:37:38,480 girls in their country uh 916 00:37:38,490 --> 00:37:40,810 regarding our relationship with 917 00:37:40,810 --> 00:37:44,810 Pakistan . So I think I'll 918 00:37:44,810 --> 00:37:46,754 submit that for the for the record 919 00:37:46,754 --> 00:37:48,977 because I know we're trying to keep the 920 00:37:48,977 --> 00:37:50,977 five minute to But the relationship 921 00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:53,199 with Pakistan going forward with regard 922 00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:55,710 to the taliban . Thank you . Thank you 923 00:37:55,710 --> 00:37:57,654 very much . Senator Hirono Senator 924 00:37:57,654 --> 00:37:59,821 Orange , please . Thank you . Mr Chair 925 00:37:59,821 --> 00:38:02,270 General Milley . In the previous round , 926 00:38:02,270 --> 00:38:04,350 we established that the withdrawal 927 00:38:04,350 --> 00:38:07,470 achieved no security conditions other 928 00:38:07,470 --> 00:38:10,810 than uh an unconditional withdrawal . 929 00:38:10,820 --> 00:38:13,840 We had to withdraw by a time certain a 930 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,820 date certain has the military and these 931 00:38:16,820 --> 00:38:18,710 are yes or no questions . Police 932 00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:21,460 General Milley has the military's task 933 00:38:21,470 --> 00:38:23,137 to defeat terror threats from 934 00:38:23,137 --> 00:38:26,250 Afghanistan gotten harder . Yes . 935 00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:29,460 Does the Taliban in its other terror 936 00:38:29,460 --> 00:38:32,450 partners have more ability to train and 937 00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:34,880 prepare in Afghanistan ? Now that we 938 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,570 have left more ability . Yes . Has 939 00:38:38,570 --> 00:38:41,800 President biden or his policy staff 940 00:38:41,810 --> 00:38:45,200 provided any any updated guidance or 941 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,780 direction for countering terror from 942 00:38:48,780 --> 00:38:52,330 Afghanistan ? Yes . Are we at a 943 00:38:52,340 --> 00:38:55,850 greater or lesser risk of terror attack 944 00:38:55,850 --> 00:38:59,010 from Afghanistan as a result of our 945 00:38:59,010 --> 00:39:02,920 withdrawal too early to tell too early 946 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,142 to tell . But I think we've got about , 947 00:39:05,142 --> 00:39:07,309 you know , to elaborate a little bit . 948 00:39:07,309 --> 00:39:09,531 Probably got about six months here , uh 949 00:39:09,531 --> 00:39:11,587 to really sort this out to see which 950 00:39:11,587 --> 00:39:13,642 direction things are gonna go . It's 951 00:39:13,642 --> 00:39:15,809 not much time . But that's my personal 952 00:39:15,809 --> 00:39:17,864 estimate . It could be out to 12 and 953 00:39:17,864 --> 00:39:19,976 then we're gonna have some indicators 954 00:39:19,976 --> 00:39:22,142 and warnings of what direction this is 955 00:39:22,142 --> 00:39:24,364 going to go . But that's where I put it 956 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,290 in the previous round . Um and this is 957 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:30,700 is a comment . But in the previous 958 00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,370 round , each of you had admitted that 959 00:39:33,370 --> 00:39:36,370 your best recommendation was to leave a 960 00:39:36,370 --> 00:39:40,120 residual force in Afghanistan . 961 00:39:40,130 --> 00:39:43,090 Clearly , the president disregarded 962 00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:45,680 that opinion . That recommendation . 963 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,360 That advice and I do believe that this 964 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,430 has left us less safe . A number of my 965 00:39:52,430 --> 00:39:54,620 colleagues have mentioned over the 966 00:39:54,620 --> 00:39:57,130 horizon . I'm General Mackenzie . You 967 00:39:57,140 --> 00:39:59,570 referenced the fact that we don't know 968 00:39:59,570 --> 00:40:01,660 yet how effective that will be . We 969 00:40:01,660 --> 00:40:03,660 don't have partners on the ground , 970 00:40:03,660 --> 00:40:05,716 talked about the airspace that would 971 00:40:05,716 --> 00:40:08,460 have to be used for over the horizon 972 00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:11,150 capabilities . Um , there is still a 973 00:40:11,150 --> 00:40:13,950 terrorist threat in Afghanistan . Now 974 00:40:13,950 --> 00:40:17,280 on August 20 , President Biden had 975 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,360 stated , What interest do we have in 976 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,860 Afghanistan at this point with Al Qaeda 977 00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:26,670 gone first . I didn't recognize that Al 978 00:40:26,670 --> 00:40:29,030 Qaeda was gone . General Mackenzie . Is 979 00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:32,770 Al Qaeda gone ? Senator Al 980 00:40:32,770 --> 00:40:35,210 Qaeda is still maintains a presence in 981 00:40:35,210 --> 00:40:38,580 Afghanistan . And uh Secretary Blinken 982 00:40:38,580 --> 00:40:41,070 had said on august 22nd that the threat 983 00:40:41,070 --> 00:40:43,730 of terrorism metastasized out of 984 00:40:43,730 --> 00:40:46,290 Afghanistan a long time ago . General 985 00:40:46,290 --> 00:40:48,234 Mackenzie , Is there any terrorist 986 00:40:48,234 --> 00:40:50,810 threat in Afghanistan ? Now , there was 987 00:40:50,810 --> 00:40:54,260 a , we see what we see is ISIS newly 988 00:40:54,260 --> 00:40:56,260 rejuvenated with the prisoners that 989 00:40:56,260 --> 00:40:58,316 came out of parwan and polish charki 990 00:40:58,316 --> 00:41:00,427 prison . They're , you know , they're 991 00:41:00,427 --> 00:41:00,370 gathering their strength . We have yet 992 00:41:00,370 --> 00:41:02,370 to see how that's going to manifest 993 00:41:02,370 --> 00:41:04,426 itself . But we know for a certainty 994 00:41:04,426 --> 00:41:06,648 that they do aspire to attack us in our 995 00:41:06,648 --> 00:41:08,703 homeland and we know the same for Al 996 00:41:08,703 --> 00:41:08,250 Qaeda . So that threat , it has 997 00:41:08,260 --> 00:41:10,204 metastasized and it is resident in 998 00:41:10,204 --> 00:41:12,204 other parts of the world , my in my 999 00:41:12,204 --> 00:41:14,427 part of the world though , it certainly 1000 00:41:14,427 --> 00:41:16,538 is in Afghanistan . Yes , it has been 1001 00:41:16,538 --> 00:41:18,649 reported that the top 22 officials of 1002 00:41:18,649 --> 00:41:20,730 the new Taliban government are known 1003 00:41:20,730 --> 00:41:22,960 associates of Al Qaeda , including five 1004 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,127 terrorists who were once imprisoned at 1005 00:41:25,127 --> 00:41:27,830 Guantanamo Bay and 13 more who were 1006 00:41:27,830 --> 00:41:30,500 sanctioned by the U . N . The United 1007 00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:33,740 Nations as terrorists post 1008 00:41:34,110 --> 00:41:37,770 9 11 . And I'm very alarmed . Um 1009 00:41:37,780 --> 00:41:39,760 Secretary Austin that your 1010 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,816 undersecretary of Defense for policy 1011 00:41:41,816 --> 00:41:45,330 Colin call claims there is a minimal 1012 00:41:45,330 --> 00:41:47,386 threat . He called the terror threat 1013 00:41:47,386 --> 00:41:50,350 from Afghanistan insignificant on a 1014 00:41:50,350 --> 00:41:52,406 call with senators less than a month 1015 00:41:52,406 --> 00:41:54,750 ago . Um He's wrong . I think all of 1016 00:41:54,750 --> 00:41:56,970 you would admit he's wrong . The FBI 1017 00:41:56,970 --> 00:41:59,280 director even said that he was wrong 1018 00:41:59,290 --> 00:42:03,080 last week . Um He's in denial or 1019 00:42:03,090 --> 00:42:05,950 he's lying . Um I would hope that his 1020 00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:07,730 testimony and comments are not 1021 00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:11,200 indicative of your own thoughts and if 1022 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,610 they are different . Um I just truly 1023 00:42:14,610 --> 00:42:16,777 hope they are . Let's just leave it at 1024 00:42:16,777 --> 00:42:18,666 that . Um So if the Department of 1025 00:42:18,666 --> 00:42:20,666 Defense can't get their lead policy 1026 00:42:20,666 --> 00:42:23,110 official off the couch , which is where 1027 00:42:23,110 --> 00:42:25,660 he told me he was during close 1028 00:42:25,660 --> 00:42:28,980 testimony testimony last week that he 1029 00:42:28,980 --> 00:42:31,036 was sitting on the couch , he didn't 1030 00:42:31,036 --> 00:42:33,000 really care what General Miller's 1031 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,110 opinion was . Um If 1032 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,710 that's the type of thought process that 1033 00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:41,877 we put into decisions that are made at 1034 00:42:41,877 --> 00:42:43,877 the Department of Defense with this 1035 00:42:43,877 --> 00:42:45,988 lead policy official . Maybe he needs 1036 00:42:45,988 --> 00:42:49,410 to go back to the couch . Um I do think 1037 00:42:49,410 --> 00:42:51,188 that there is still a threat in 1038 00:42:51,188 --> 00:42:53,243 Afghanistan . I think we all need to 1039 00:42:53,243 --> 00:42:55,188 acknowledge that recognize it . Al 1040 00:42:55,188 --> 00:42:57,400 Qaeda is not gone . I hope we all make 1041 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,910 that very clear to the president and we 1042 00:42:59,910 --> 00:43:01,521 will have to have additional 1043 00:43:01,521 --> 00:43:03,690 discussions about over the horizon as 1044 00:43:03,690 --> 00:43:06,170 things develop in the upcoming months . 1045 00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:08,124 Thank you . Mr Chair . Thank you . 1046 00:43:08,124 --> 00:43:10,236 Senator Orange . Now let me recognize 1047 00:43:10,236 --> 00:43:12,347 Senator Gillibrand please thank you . 1048 00:43:12,347 --> 00:43:14,458 Mr Chairman . Um And continuing in my 1049 00:43:14,458 --> 00:43:16,569 line of question from the first round 1050 00:43:16,569 --> 00:43:18,624 um Secretary Austin General Milley , 1051 00:43:18,624 --> 00:43:20,791 are you aware of any internal audits ? 1052 00:43:20,791 --> 00:43:22,791 They are being conducted within the 1053 00:43:22,791 --> 00:43:24,958 department defense on the execution of 1054 00:43:24,958 --> 00:43:27,600 the war over the last 20 years . Uh huh . 1055 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,920 I am not other than the A . R . 1056 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,030 Activity that we will conduct within 1057 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,970 within a department . What's that after 1058 00:43:35,970 --> 00:43:38,248 action review . And what will that say ? 1059 00:43:38,248 --> 00:43:40,359 What will that what will make up that 1060 00:43:40,359 --> 00:43:44,270 review ? I will focus on on You 1061 00:43:44,270 --> 00:43:46,492 know the things that have occurred as a 1062 00:43:46,492 --> 00:43:48,548 part of this this latest operation . 1063 00:43:48,548 --> 00:43:50,990 But I think your initial question was 1064 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,944 is there a review over the last 20 1065 00:43:52,944 --> 00:43:55,111 years ? And the answer to that is no . 1066 00:43:55,111 --> 00:43:57,056 And do you think a review of broad 1067 00:43:57,056 --> 00:43:59,333 scope would be useful to the d . o . d . 1068 00:43:59,333 --> 00:44:01,380 and useful to policymakers in the 1069 00:44:01,380 --> 00:44:03,547 future , particularly this committee ? 1070 00:44:03,590 --> 00:44:05,940 I do Senator . And I also think as I 1071 00:44:05,940 --> 00:44:08,162 mentioned earlier that that should have 1072 00:44:08,162 --> 00:44:10,590 an interagency flavor as well . And do 1073 00:44:10,590 --> 00:44:13,000 you have any recommendations for an 1074 00:44:13,010 --> 00:44:15,177 external independent review of the war 1075 00:44:15,177 --> 00:44:17,343 in Afghanistan , for example , what do 1076 00:44:17,343 --> 00:44:19,454 you think Congress's role should be ? 1077 00:44:19,454 --> 00:44:21,177 And how would such an audit be 1078 00:44:21,177 --> 00:44:23,177 conducted ? What U . S . Agencies , 1079 00:44:23,177 --> 00:44:25,288 countries and organizations should be 1080 00:44:25,288 --> 00:44:27,288 included in the review of America's 1081 00:44:27,288 --> 00:44:29,340 longest war . I don't have any 1082 00:44:29,340 --> 00:44:31,451 recommendations at this point . I can 1083 00:44:31,451 --> 00:44:33,451 certainly take that for the for the 1084 00:44:33,451 --> 00:44:35,618 record center . That would be grateful 1085 00:44:35,618 --> 00:44:37,840 for that . Secretary Austin and General 1086 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,062 Milley . Um This is something that hits 1087 00:44:40,062 --> 00:44:42,173 a little closer to home . A number of 1088 00:44:42,173 --> 00:44:42,070 our diplomats , intelligence officers 1089 00:44:42,070 --> 00:44:44,181 and service members who assisted with 1090 00:44:44,181 --> 00:44:46,348 evacuation including the 10th Mountain 1091 00:44:46,348 --> 00:44:48,459 Division from Fort Drum new york were 1092 00:44:48,459 --> 00:44:50,570 subjected to acute trauma and chronic 1093 00:44:50,570 --> 00:44:52,348 stress . The problem we are not 1094 00:44:52,348 --> 00:44:54,570 unfamiliar with after the last 20 years 1095 00:44:54,570 --> 00:44:56,681 of war in Afghanistan , Iraq families 1096 00:44:56,681 --> 00:44:58,681 at Fort Drum have told my office it 1097 00:44:58,681 --> 00:45:00,848 felt like a full deployment compressed 1098 00:45:00,848 --> 00:45:03,014 into the time of a few weeks further . 1099 00:45:03,014 --> 00:45:05,014 So many of our service members have 1100 00:45:05,014 --> 00:45:07,237 lost their lives to suicide . Which has 1101 00:45:07,237 --> 00:45:09,403 been devastating . What is D . O . D . 1102 00:45:09,403 --> 00:45:11,181 Doing to ensure that our combat 1103 00:45:11,181 --> 00:45:13,403 veterans and their families are getting 1104 00:45:13,403 --> 00:45:15,514 adequate mental health assessment and 1105 00:45:15,514 --> 00:45:17,348 the resources they need . Thanks 1106 00:45:17,348 --> 00:45:19,514 Senator . I'll make a comment and I'll 1107 00:45:19,514 --> 00:45:21,681 let General Milley comment as well . I 1108 00:45:21,681 --> 00:45:23,792 think you asked him as well . But but 1109 00:45:23,792 --> 00:45:25,848 uh you've heard me say before that , 1110 00:45:25,848 --> 00:45:27,848 you know , my belief is that mental 1111 00:45:27,848 --> 00:45:30,014 health is health period . And uh there 1112 00:45:30,014 --> 00:45:32,014 should be no stigma associated with 1113 00:45:32,014 --> 00:45:34,014 seeking help . Uh If you're dealing 1114 00:45:34,014 --> 00:45:36,181 with with issues and I have encouraged 1115 00:45:36,181 --> 00:45:38,348 the entire force all of our leadership 1116 00:45:38,348 --> 00:45:40,403 to make sure that number one we have 1117 00:45:40,403 --> 00:45:42,514 adequate adequate resources available 1118 00:45:42,514 --> 00:45:44,403 for troops and our families . And 1119 00:45:44,403 --> 00:45:46,070 number two that they d stigma 1120 00:45:46,070 --> 00:45:49,350 stigmatize uh the issue of assisting 1121 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,610 help with mental health issues . 1122 00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:57,130 Senator . As you know , I commanded the 1123 00:45:57,130 --> 00:45:59,060 10th mountain division as well as 1124 00:45:59,060 --> 00:46:01,300 Secretary Austin at one point . Uh And 1125 00:46:01,300 --> 00:46:03,133 that division is one of the most 1126 00:46:03,133 --> 00:46:05,244 deployed divisions along with 100 and 1127 00:46:05,244 --> 00:46:07,411 first airborne division out of Senator 1128 00:46:07,411 --> 00:46:09,670 Blackburn's state . And there is 1129 00:46:09,670 --> 00:46:11,726 significant mental health capability 1130 00:46:11,726 --> 00:46:13,948 there to help the soldiers that were on 1131 00:46:13,948 --> 00:46:16,560 this non combatant evacuation and 1132 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,838 they'll get immediate assessments upon . 1133 00:46:18,838 --> 00:46:21,004 Redeployment is the normal procedure . 1134 00:46:21,004 --> 00:46:23,282 Uh And then those that need counseling . 1135 00:46:23,282 --> 00:46:25,504 It's there . The key that we have to do 1136 00:46:25,504 --> 00:46:27,282 is emphasize the culture of non 1137 00:46:27,282 --> 00:46:29,393 stigmatization . Non stigmatizing any 1138 00:46:29,393 --> 00:46:31,393 sort of mental health issues that a 1139 00:46:31,393 --> 00:46:33,616 soldier , sailor , airman marine have . 1140 00:46:33,616 --> 00:46:35,616 And so that they feel free they can 1141 00:46:35,616 --> 00:46:37,893 seek out the council we have available . 1142 00:46:37,893 --> 00:46:40,116 Thank you . Um I'd like to follow up on 1143 00:46:40,116 --> 00:46:42,171 the line of questioning that Senator 1144 00:46:42,171 --> 00:46:44,393 earn started um Can you describe for us 1145 00:46:44,393 --> 00:46:46,449 the Al Qaeda threat today where it's 1146 00:46:46,449 --> 00:46:48,616 located , where you believe it will be 1147 00:46:48,616 --> 00:46:50,782 going um What the strength is compared 1148 00:46:50,782 --> 00:46:53,060 to the strength over the last 20 years . 1149 00:46:53,060 --> 00:46:55,282 And please answer the same question for 1150 00:46:55,282 --> 00:46:57,393 ISIS , ISIS K and other um variations 1151 00:46:57,393 --> 00:46:59,530 of ISIS across the world . But you're 1152 00:46:59,530 --> 00:47:02,270 asking me center , yes , General Milley 1153 00:47:02,270 --> 00:47:05,630 first and then separate awesome . So 1154 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,529 first I think it would be good to 1155 00:47:07,529 --> 00:47:09,196 handle it in some detail in a 1156 00:47:09,196 --> 00:47:10,918 classified session . But in an 1157 00:47:10,918 --> 00:47:13,140 unclassified session , I would say that 1158 00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:15,251 the Al Qaeda threat globally is still 1159 00:47:15,251 --> 00:47:17,760 there . Uh the threat in Afghanistan 1160 00:47:17,770 --> 00:47:19,881 has an opportunity now to potentially 1161 00:47:19,881 --> 00:47:22,048 reconstitute although it's been ripped 1162 00:47:22,048 --> 00:47:24,159 apart pretty steadily over 20 years . 1163 00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:27,290 Um and Al Qaeda has displaced other 1164 00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:28,957 parts of the world with their 1165 00:47:28,957 --> 00:47:31,179 affiliates in East Africa for example , 1166 00:47:31,179 --> 00:47:33,179 Al Shabaab or A Q A P down in Yemen 1167 00:47:33,179 --> 00:47:35,068 also in the Maghreb etcetera . So 1168 00:47:35,068 --> 00:47:37,234 there's several affiliates worldwide , 1169 00:47:37,234 --> 00:47:39,234 some of which are quite capable and 1170 00:47:39,234 --> 00:47:41,346 definitely have aspirations to attack 1171 00:47:41,346 --> 00:47:43,512 the United States . Um with respect to 1172 00:47:43,512 --> 00:47:45,679 ISIS , we saw ISIS core in in Iraq and 1173 00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:47,901 Rock and all that . That was all ripped 1174 00:47:47,901 --> 00:47:50,012 apart . But they still exist up there 1175 00:47:50,012 --> 00:47:52,123 by the way . And ISIS has found a new 1176 00:47:52,123 --> 00:47:54,346 home in parts of Afghanistan , although 1177 00:47:54,346 --> 00:47:54,220 right now they're at war essentially 1178 00:47:54,220 --> 00:47:56,180 with the Taliban . But ISIS has 1179 00:47:56,180 --> 00:47:58,236 affiliates as well in other parts of 1180 00:47:58,236 --> 00:48:00,458 the world because of the brutality . So 1181 00:48:00,458 --> 00:48:02,513 there are other regions of the world 1182 00:48:02,513 --> 00:48:04,680 which have high concentrations of very 1183 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,680 lethal terrorist organizations that 1184 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,847 have aspirations to conduct operations 1185 00:48:08,847 --> 00:48:10,958 against the United States . Uh and we 1186 00:48:10,958 --> 00:48:12,902 have operations and intelligence , 1187 00:48:12,902 --> 00:48:12,600 surveillance reconnaissance etcetera 1188 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,711 and all of those parts to continue to 1189 00:48:14,711 --> 00:48:16,670 watch that . But it has moved in 1190 00:48:16,670 --> 00:48:18,837 various parts and we can cover that in 1191 00:48:18,837 --> 00:48:21,003 some detail in a classified session if 1192 00:48:21,003 --> 00:48:23,114 that's okay . Thank you . Thank you . 1193 00:48:23,114 --> 00:48:22,720 Mr Chairman . I'll pursue both 1194 00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:24,553 questions for both in classified 1195 00:48:24,553 --> 00:48:26,276 settings . Thank you . Senator 1196 00:48:26,276 --> 00:48:28,331 Gillibrand Senator Tillis , please . 1197 00:48:28,331 --> 00:48:30,810 Thank you . Mr Chairman General Milley 1198 00:48:30,810 --> 00:48:32,866 and General Mackenzie . I ran out of 1199 00:48:32,866 --> 00:48:34,880 time before I could . Thank you for 1200 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,102 some of the work that your staff did in 1201 00:48:37,102 --> 00:48:40,050 august . We were working several cases . 1202 00:48:40,060 --> 00:48:42,220 Uh I was involved I remember a 1203 00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:44,341 conversation with one of your staff , 1204 00:48:44,341 --> 00:48:46,174 General Mackenzie at about three 1205 00:48:46,174 --> 00:48:48,230 o'clock in the morning while we were 1206 00:48:48,230 --> 00:48:50,341 trying to shepherd someone out and we 1207 00:48:50,341 --> 00:48:50,010 did get them out successfully along 1208 00:48:50,010 --> 00:48:51,899 with some american citizens . But 1209 00:48:52,270 --> 00:48:55,840 Unfortunately we have a much longer 1210 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,618 list of people that we were not 1211 00:48:57,618 --> 00:49:00,560 successful with getting out between S . 1212 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,560 ivy holders and family members . My 1213 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,760 office alone has over 900 people still 1214 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,820 on a list of people who are still in 1215 00:49:07,820 --> 00:49:10,980 Afghanistan . Uh And we communicate 1216 00:49:10,980 --> 00:49:13,202 with these people through WhatsApp . We 1217 00:49:13,202 --> 00:49:15,369 were trying to shepherd them to HK and 1218 00:49:15,369 --> 00:49:17,424 then back and forth . And ultimately 1219 00:49:17,424 --> 00:49:19,647 operations were shut down and they were 1220 00:49:19,647 --> 00:49:23,510 stranded and left behind . Um So what 1221 00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:25,770 role and Secretary Austin maybe I'll 1222 00:49:25,770 --> 00:49:29,370 start with you what role if any . Uh 1223 00:49:29,380 --> 00:49:31,602 And actually before I answer that on on 1224 00:49:31,602 --> 00:49:33,491 the mental health issue , we were 1225 00:49:33,491 --> 00:49:35,713 working with a marine who was trying to 1226 00:49:35,713 --> 00:49:38,730 get uh an interpreter out had been 1227 00:49:38,740 --> 00:49:41,010 maintaining contact for years . We had 1228 00:49:41,010 --> 00:49:43,177 all the authenticating documentation . 1229 00:49:43,470 --> 00:49:45,692 We weren't successful in that case that 1230 00:49:45,692 --> 00:49:47,748 Marine committed suicide about three 1231 00:49:47,748 --> 00:49:49,970 weeks ago . Retired Marine . Uh So this 1232 00:49:49,970 --> 00:49:52,026 is having real life consequences not 1233 00:49:52,026 --> 00:49:54,026 only in Afghanistan but here in the 1234 00:49:54,026 --> 00:49:56,080 United States . So Secretary Austin 1235 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,800 what role if any does the D . O . D . 1236 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,630 Play and helping us draw down this list 1237 00:50:01,630 --> 00:50:03,730 of people that we believe we have 1238 00:50:03,730 --> 00:50:05,952 documentation that suggests they should 1239 00:50:05,952 --> 00:50:07,710 somehow get shepherded out of 1240 00:50:07,710 --> 00:50:08,690 Afghanistan 1241 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,530 senator . First of all , uh my deepest 1242 00:50:14,530 --> 00:50:16,840 condolences on the loss of our marine . 1243 00:50:16,850 --> 00:50:20,490 Really sad to hear that um thoughts and 1244 00:50:20,490 --> 00:50:24,260 prayers to his family . Um D . O . D . 1245 00:50:24,260 --> 00:50:26,610 Continues to work as a as a part of the 1246 00:50:26,610 --> 00:50:28,388 cell that you may have heard me 1247 00:50:28,388 --> 00:50:30,850 mentioned earlier that's actually run 1248 00:50:30,860 --> 00:50:32,916 or headed up by the State Department 1249 00:50:32,916 --> 00:50:35,700 and uh Ambassador john Bassett is 1250 00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:38,550 running that . Uh and we're trying to 1251 00:50:38,550 --> 00:50:42,250 pull in as much information from every 1252 00:50:42,250 --> 00:50:45,270 corner that we can and refine list and 1253 00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:48,310 refine uh contact information so that 1254 00:50:48,310 --> 00:50:50,830 we can reach out and and make sure that 1255 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,490 uh people have the right credentials to 1256 00:50:53,490 --> 00:50:56,090 be able to leave the country . Uh And 1257 00:50:56,090 --> 00:50:58,890 uh and so we continue to work with as a 1258 00:50:58,890 --> 00:51:01,770 part of the state effort on this issue 1259 00:51:01,780 --> 00:51:03,836 I think would be helpful to find out 1260 00:51:03,836 --> 00:51:06,002 what our point of contact was . It was 1261 00:51:06,002 --> 00:51:08,220 literally me reaching somebody to see 1262 00:51:08,220 --> 00:51:10,331 if they could help me or moving it up 1263 00:51:10,331 --> 00:51:12,442 the chain of command where I was able 1264 00:51:12,442 --> 00:51:14,442 to personally intervened in several 1265 00:51:14,442 --> 00:51:18,270 cases um General Milley and General 1266 00:51:18,270 --> 00:51:20,492 Mackenzie . Some people have said we're 1267 00:51:20,492 --> 00:51:22,714 glad that we've ended this war . Is the 1268 00:51:22,714 --> 00:51:25,580 war on terror over General Milley ? 1269 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,480 Absolutely not . Uh General Mackenzie . 1270 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,271 The war on terror is not over and the 1271 00:51:32,271 --> 00:51:34,493 war in Afghanistan is not over either . 1272 00:51:34,493 --> 00:51:36,549 Has the exit from Afghanistan ? Made 1273 00:51:36,549 --> 00:51:38,549 the war more challenging for us are 1274 00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:40,940 less challenging with respect to 1275 00:51:40,940 --> 00:51:42,829 continuing to try and protect the 1276 00:51:42,829 --> 00:51:44,773 homeland and us interests abroad . 1277 00:51:44,773 --> 00:51:46,773 Senators made it more challenging . 1278 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:49,782 General You agree ? Yeah . Absolutely . 1279 00:51:50,260 --> 00:51:53,820 Um Related note of Wall Street journal 1280 00:51:53,830 --> 00:51:56,480 article published on August 31 said us 1281 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,702 officials acknowledged the military has 1282 00:51:58,702 --> 00:52:00,940 lost 90% of the intelligence collection 1283 00:52:00,940 --> 00:52:03,162 capabilities it had using drones before 1284 00:52:03,162 --> 00:52:05,370 the drawdown . Um Do you agree with 1285 00:52:05,370 --> 00:52:08,530 that ? I didn't see the report . It 1286 00:52:08,530 --> 00:52:10,586 said , say again . What it said ? It 1287 00:52:10,586 --> 00:52:13,760 said with uh we have lost 90% of our 1288 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,816 intelligence collection capabilities 1289 00:52:15,816 --> 00:52:17,760 that had using drones . Before the 1290 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,290 drawdown . I'd have to go look at the 1291 00:52:20,290 --> 00:52:22,160 actual math . I've got my J . To 1292 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:23,993 actually doing that right now to 1293 00:52:23,993 --> 00:52:25,938 determine the level of I . S . Our 1294 00:52:25,938 --> 00:52:27,827 assets and the statistics . It is 1295 00:52:27,827 --> 00:52:29,993 significant . I don't know if it's 90% 1296 00:52:29,993 --> 00:52:32,104 but uh on the S . I . V . S . And and 1297 00:52:32,104 --> 00:52:34,382 folks that are stranded in Afghanistan . 1298 00:52:34,382 --> 00:52:37,410 Uh Is it fair to say that our human 1299 00:52:37,410 --> 00:52:40,060 intelligence network given the current 1300 00:52:40,060 --> 00:52:43,030 status uh and the fact that many were 1301 00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:45,086 left behind . Is it fair to say that 1302 00:52:45,086 --> 00:52:47,252 that's been stressed even more so than 1303 00:52:47,252 --> 00:52:49,474 our drone surveillance capabilities ? I 1304 00:52:49,474 --> 00:52:51,419 mean do we have much in the way of 1305 00:52:51,419 --> 00:52:51,170 human intelligence on the ground in 1306 00:52:51,170 --> 00:52:53,990 Afghanistan today ? We can explain that 1307 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:55,850 I think in good detail uh in a 1308 00:52:55,850 --> 00:52:58,183 classified session . But there is still , 1309 00:52:58,183 --> 00:53:01,000 Yes . Do we also uh back uh General 1310 00:53:01,010 --> 00:53:03,000 Secretary Austin . I think it's so 1311 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,000 important for us to show that we're 1312 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,111 gonna move having an earth to try and 1313 00:53:07,111 --> 00:53:09,111 get these others out of Afghanistan 1314 00:53:09,111 --> 00:53:11,278 because this not only has an impact in 1315 00:53:11,278 --> 00:53:13,611 Afghanistan , it has an impact anywhere . 1316 00:53:13,611 --> 00:53:15,556 You know , S . I . V . S . Are not 1317 00:53:15,556 --> 00:53:17,722 unique to Afghanistan . People working 1318 00:53:17,722 --> 00:53:19,944 with human intelligence on the ground . 1319 00:53:19,944 --> 00:53:22,000 Keeping our forces safe is something 1320 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:21,900 that's standard operating procedure in 1321 00:53:21,900 --> 00:53:24,430 a lot of dangerous areas . So I hope 1322 00:53:24,430 --> 00:53:26,652 that we recognize that we owe it to the 1323 00:53:26,652 --> 00:53:28,819 people of Afghanistan but we owe it to 1324 00:53:28,819 --> 00:53:30,819 our men and women in uniform to get 1325 00:53:30,819 --> 00:53:33,260 this right . Thank you . Thank you . 1326 00:53:33,260 --> 00:53:35,371 Senator Tillis . Now let me recognize 1327 00:53:35,371 --> 00:53:38,270 Senator War . Thank you . Mr Chairman 1328 00:53:38,750 --> 00:53:42,270 General Milley . Our military executed 1329 00:53:42,270 --> 00:53:44,492 a massive operation during the month of 1330 00:53:44,492 --> 00:53:46,659 august as I understand it was larger . 1331 00:53:46,750 --> 00:53:49,060 Then the Berlin airlift for the record . 1332 00:53:49,060 --> 00:53:51,393 Can you just tell us how many americans ? 1333 00:53:51,393 --> 00:53:54,400 You evacuated ? Almost 6000 ? I can get 1334 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,456 your precise number for the record . 1335 00:53:56,456 --> 00:53:58,511 But about 6000 . Let's get the right 1336 00:53:58,511 --> 00:54:00,456 number for the record . But that's 1337 00:54:00,456 --> 00:54:02,678 that's helpful . And how many people in 1338 00:54:02,678 --> 00:54:04,789 total did the US and coalition forces 1339 00:54:04,789 --> 00:54:08,620 uh to evacuate ? 124,000 total , 44,000 1340 00:54:08,620 --> 00:54:10,620 went out on non-US aircraft and the 1341 00:54:10,620 --> 00:54:12,731 rest came out on us aircraft . Okay . 1342 00:54:12,731 --> 00:54:14,731 An extraordinary effort . But still 1343 00:54:14,731 --> 00:54:16,787 it's hard to get everyone airlift in 1344 00:54:16,787 --> 00:54:20,360 history . Right . Hard to get everyone 1345 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,582 out . One problem , of course , is that 1346 00:54:22,582 --> 00:54:24,360 there were so many afghanis ivy 1347 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,950 applicants in Kabul waiting to be 1348 00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:28,506 evacuated because the trump 1349 00:54:28,506 --> 00:54:30,728 administration had essentially shut the 1350 00:54:30,728 --> 00:54:33,820 program down . Withdrawal was a massive 1351 00:54:33,830 --> 00:54:36,830 operation conducted in a chaotic , 1352 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:38,896 unpredictable environment . And some 1353 00:54:38,896 --> 00:54:41,590 people have criticized you For leaving 1354 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,960 on August 31 , but I just want to 1355 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,190 explore that for a minute . General 1356 00:54:46,190 --> 00:54:48,360 Milley , once the afghan government 1357 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,190 collapsed in august , would you say 1358 00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:53,640 that staying past the date of their 1359 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,960 collapse would have exposed the force 1360 00:54:55,970 --> 00:54:58,720 on the ground to substantial additional 1361 00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:01,290 risk ? Yes . And that is exactly what 1362 00:55:01,290 --> 00:55:03,346 we assess that if we stayed past the 1363 00:55:03,346 --> 00:55:05,660 31st , the risk of force us military 1364 00:55:05,660 --> 00:55:07,882 casualties , the risks of the mission , 1365 00:55:07,882 --> 00:55:09,771 the ability to execute , continue 1366 00:55:09,771 --> 00:55:11,827 executing Neo and most importantly , 1367 00:55:11,827 --> 00:55:13,993 the risk to the american citizens that 1368 00:55:13,993 --> 00:55:16,216 are still there was going to go to , we 1369 00:55:16,216 --> 00:55:18,327 assess very high levels . Um , and we 1370 00:55:18,327 --> 00:55:20,438 thought that that was a level of risk 1371 00:55:20,438 --> 00:55:22,660 that was unacceptable . Okay , And just 1372 00:55:22,660 --> 00:55:24,882 so I'm sure and everybody's got this on 1373 00:55:24,882 --> 00:55:24,470 the record . So if we'd stayed another 1374 00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:27,120 week or two or three , then it's likely 1375 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,420 there would have been another attack 1376 00:55:29,420 --> 00:55:31,587 that killed american service members . 1377 00:55:31,587 --> 00:55:33,642 Is that what you're saying ? I would 1378 00:55:33,642 --> 00:55:35,642 say that that is a near certainty , 1379 00:55:35,642 --> 00:55:37,820 alright . For years we poured money 1380 00:55:37,830 --> 00:55:39,774 into the afghan government and for 1381 00:55:39,774 --> 00:55:41,497 years we train their army , we 1382 00:55:41,497 --> 00:55:43,330 outfitted them with all the best 1383 00:55:43,330 --> 00:55:45,441 american equipment . We provided them 1384 00:55:45,441 --> 00:55:47,920 with overwhelming air power . Even so , 1385 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,142 both the Afghan government and the army 1386 00:55:50,142 --> 00:55:53,950 collapsed almost instantaneously . So , 1387 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,182 General Milley , let me ask you , given 1388 00:55:56,182 --> 00:55:58,780 how quickly the Afghan government and 1389 00:55:58,780 --> 00:56:01,520 the Afghan army collapsed , Do you 1390 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,600 think that either or both would have 1391 00:56:04,610 --> 00:56:07,360 been able to stand on their own with 1392 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,090 just another few months or another few 1393 00:56:10,090 --> 00:56:12,030 years of american assistance in 1394 00:56:12,030 --> 00:56:15,280 training , I pick at this point , 1395 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,447 that's unknowable , but my estimate at 1396 00:56:17,447 --> 00:56:21,270 the time was um if you kept advisors , 1397 00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:23,492 they're kept money flowing , etcetera , 1398 00:56:23,492 --> 00:56:25,603 that we probably could have sustained 1399 00:56:25,603 --> 00:56:27,826 them for a lengthy or indefinite period 1400 00:56:27,826 --> 00:56:30,048 of time . Whether or not you would have 1401 00:56:30,048 --> 00:56:29,370 had a different result at the end of 1402 00:56:29,370 --> 00:56:31,670 the day . Um That's a different 1403 00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:33,837 question . You know , when when I hear 1404 00:56:33,837 --> 00:56:35,948 you say that it reminds me of all the 1405 00:56:35,948 --> 00:56:38,059 years that I've sat now in the Senate 1406 00:56:38,059 --> 00:56:40,170 Armed Services Committee and how many 1407 00:56:40,170 --> 00:56:42,281 times the generals have come in front 1408 00:56:42,281 --> 00:56:44,448 of us and when you point out every way 1409 00:56:44,448 --> 00:56:46,392 in which the Afghan government was 1410 00:56:46,392 --> 00:56:48,559 failing in the afghan army was failing 1411 00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:50,726 the general's respond with , but we're 1412 00:56:50,726 --> 00:56:52,948 turning the corner . Now , I didn't say 1413 00:56:52,948 --> 00:56:55,059 returning the corner Senator . I said 1414 00:56:55,059 --> 00:56:57,281 we could sustain them and that we would 1415 00:56:57,281 --> 00:56:59,337 be able to keep them . And somehow , 1416 00:56:59,337 --> 00:56:58,920 when we got ready to withdraw , they 1417 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,976 would be so well sustained that they 1418 00:57:00,976 --> 00:57:02,364 would not have collapsed 1419 00:57:02,364 --> 00:57:04,531 instantaneously The way they did after 1420 00:57:04,531 --> 00:57:06,753 20 years of sustenance and training . I 1421 00:57:06,753 --> 00:57:08,976 think the end state probably would have 1422 00:57:08,976 --> 00:57:11,309 been the same no matter when you did it . 1423 00:57:11,309 --> 00:57:13,142 Well , you know , I believe that 1424 00:57:13,142 --> 00:57:12,890 leaving a force behind would have 1425 00:57:12,890 --> 00:57:14,670 necessitated that force staying 1426 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,250 indefinitely . And many of those 1427 00:57:17,250 --> 00:57:19,472 service members would have been exposed 1428 00:57:19,472 --> 00:57:21,820 unnecessary risk and harm . That's 1429 00:57:21,820 --> 00:57:24,840 exactly right . We agree . And I also 1430 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:26,896 just want to say this week , we will 1431 00:57:26,896 --> 00:57:30,080 have our fifth hearing on Afghanistan 1432 00:57:30,260 --> 00:57:32,460 in the eight months since President 1433 00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:34,770 biden took office during the trump 1434 00:57:34,770 --> 00:57:37,380 years as the Afghan government and the 1435 00:57:37,390 --> 00:57:40,940 Afghan army racked up one failure after 1436 00:57:40,940 --> 00:57:43,340 another . The Republicans seem far less 1437 00:57:43,350 --> 00:57:46,250 interested in this topic . Holding one 1438 00:57:46,430 --> 00:57:49,380 public hearing a year , the republicans 1439 00:57:49,380 --> 00:57:51,930 sudden interest in Afghanistan is plain 1440 00:57:51,930 --> 00:57:54,140 old politics . It is not the kind of 1441 00:57:54,150 --> 00:57:56,350 oversight that we should have been 1442 00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,180 exercising in years past . So , thank 1443 00:57:59,180 --> 00:58:01,124 you . Mr Chairman for calling this 1444 00:58:01,124 --> 00:58:03,347 hearing . Thank you very much . Senator 1445 00:58:03,347 --> 00:58:03,350 Warren